Thanks, Dave - that's probably the most heartfelt exposition of the Christian viewpoint that I've ever read.

Ah, good old Calvinists. Crazy lil' buggers.

I'm not sure if I can completely buy into your Jesus as a paradox argument but I know what you are saying. To me, basically, being a Christian boils down to leading by example (Jesus-like) and having faith that God will take care of the rest.

As far as God being the 3 omnis as well as very human-like in the Bible, you have to remember that no religion exists in a vacuum, Christianity borrowed heavily from Judaism, which borrowed heavily from Zoroastrianism, and so forth. That's a big reason why God in the Bible gets angry, is compassionate, gambles with Satan over Job for whatever reason (according to scholars).

Wow, ok thanks Dave242.

Jesus was either god before or after his death. Either way there is an issue there. If before, then he really didn't suffer and already knew what was going to happen and never really died. If after, then his words were just his words that he thought were coming from god. Ok maybe none of that an actually be debated, because none of us can know for sure, so I will move on form that.

If god and man are polar opposites, then they can't really be one in the same, right? I thought God made us in his image to be like him without the power. How can we be polar opposites then as well?

Scripture/Gospel/Bible - All of this was written & edited by humans and the books were decided in a committee. Inspired by god or not, humans make mistakes. So mistakes must have been made. How can you know which is correct and which could be errors or just worded incorrectly?

Going back to god created us. Why would god put a place in the universe like hell? He is supposed to love us and create us in his image and love us. Why in all that could be holy, would he build a place to condemn so many to burning in flames for ETERNITY? This has to be church created to keep their people in fear. Humans must have created hell. No loving god could possibly create such thing? God loves all his creations, but this "large" group of creations all suffer for eternity? Really?

I might be over simplifying here but; Jesus=Word, Word=Scripture, Scripture=Person, Person=Truth ...... Jesus=Truth.
My real point is you can just sting a bunch of stuff together in relation to create a meaning for something that is not actually there. (So sarcastically; Apple=Red, Red=Fire, Fire=Hot, Hot=Sun ....... Apple=Sun.) You can't just put 2 paradoxical "supposed truths" together "as close as you can" and expect that to actually equal something. What you are describing to me is assumption.

As much as I enjoyed your writing and reading all of that, I just can't piece any of it together to be anything but assumptions and guess work.

I was highlighting the aspects of a spiritual God that are different than humans. I excluded everything that we have in common to make my already too long dissertation shorter. Both God and man have these and much more in common: relational, communal, intelligent, emotion, nurturing, jealous, engaged.

There is nuance in each of these that I do not want to get into……that is the main point of the Bible – it is an autobiography and the point of an autobiography is to get to know the author. Oh, and that triggers a thought of another evidence for God - when a person becomes a Christian a becomes "spiritually alive" it is a very common experience that suddenly reading the Bible resonates deeply whereas it seemed quite boring/dry before.

I think that this argument is way overblown…..and is a convenient excuse not to put any/minimal stock into what Scripture says. Sure, there are nuances in language that do not translate well and there is never-ending debate among scholars on what some minor things mean in the earliest texts. I do not know how much you know about the Dead Sea scrolls, but they go a very long way in debunking the myth that scripture over time has changed to suit a myth that the Church was manipulating and trying to propagate.

I’m sure Olorin could give you much more insight into this……or I could look it all up and regurgitate it here…..or you could look it up. But, in my mind this is all one big excuse not to take seriously the simple message that has NOT been mangled: “Love God with everything you have and love your neighbor as yourself. Be holy/perfect and God is holy/perfect.”

And it does not mangle the truth that me on my own power cannot do those things and therefore cannot stand before God and say “you need to accept me because I done good!”. No, the only way I can stand before a holy/perfect God is that he needs to extend mercy/grace/forgiveness to me.

You know what. I tend to agree with you on this. I have not had a lot of discussions with the scholarly types on this, but I do believe that the concept of eternal conscious torture in hell is a mistaken (and very destructive) understanding of what Scripture says. I imagine my belief would be called heretical by those who do not want to really look at scripture but would rather lean on unchallenged tradition.

I agree that very unhealthy and manipulative tactics have been used by many in God’s/Christ’s name to scare people to believe. I think that is very wrong.

Yes, the Bible does say the fires of hell burn forever. But it does NOT say in one single place that the punishment lasts forever (but most make that implication since tradition teaches us that). It says that the suffering will be like that of Sodom and Gomorrah – burning sulfur destroyed it. There was indeed burning BUT there was a definite end to the suffering and destruction.

continued.....

I think a much more real way of looking at it is the “burning hole of emptiness” we feel when we are relationally separated. I have felt it when girlfriends and broken up with me, and I imagine it is a common sensation when one is fired. I have experienced this at a much deeper and consuming level at the loss of a loved one.

And, I think the part of us that lives on after death will somehow experience that “burning hole of separation” to an enormously greater level than the death of a loved one.......if we end up separated from God. That conscious suffering will last “for a time” and then the person/soul will be snuffed out……and the separation will continue forever (in that the person/soul will not be with God).

A loving God grants us free will. If we chose to be apart from him, he lets that happen.

The A=B, B=C, C=D, so A=D thing is not my assumption or my making. It is directly from the Bible. Read it here verses 1 through 17:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...01&version=NIV

The themes that are contradictory are not mine. They are in the bible too. What is made up and explained by me is the analogy of holding 2 contradicting things as close together as possible. I have not talked about it in terms of a magnet, but when you get 2 magnets and push the same poles together, the closer they get, the more tension, energy and excitement there is.

Continued......