http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

Very interesting, since evolution came into question in these posts. There are more scientists named "Steve" who fully support the theory of evolution than all scientists who doubt evolution. So which viewpoint has the overwhelming support of the highly learned community?

If you're going to say that degree = correctness, then you have to somehow reconcile that over 99% of published and peer-reviewed scientists fully support the theory of evolution as fact.

Dave,

Sorry, but Ace D is correct that my masters degree is a Master of Divinity (with a concentration in Greek). I studied Environmental Engineering in college so I have studied Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geology, Hydrology, Meteorology, Astronomy, Cosmology, and Cosmetology . I have read fairly widely in theology, apologetics, and biblical studies and can read biblical Greek, some Hebrew, and a fair amount of Chinese.

I don't know his background, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ace D has read more about science than I have. And Dave you probably know more about science than I do as well.

Ace D,

I said earlier that I don't think that you are really interested in answers or the truth, so it serves no purpose to waste time posting or refuting your opinions. I could point you to websites to read, but I don't think you would, so I won't spend time doing that either.

Ace D - I am not comparing you two out of ignorance. Any comparison was based on data you provided. And, no - you did not prove him wrong.......maybe incomplete, but not wrong.

And just so you know, I will not allow myself on my part of discussions to be lowered into petty squabbles that detract from the bigger topics being discussed. I hope you can respect what I am trying to communicate.

Olorin - no reason to apologize.....the topic at hand is "Religion as source of morality?" and I stand by my assertion you are well qualified to talk about this rather than disappear and talk only about DG.

I did not know you had an undergrad degree in Env Eng......cool stuff!

I stand by my point that a person first decides their own notion of right and wrong, and then finds fitting Bible passages. The book does indeed provide situations in which it is appropriate to kill people which almost everyone alive today would consider barbaric. Would you commit serious crimes if the Bible did not instruct you otherwise? That fills me with pity and worry.

With his non-science degree, I would consider him under-qualified to refute even a single statement I've made about science. You cannot deny concrete fact. You can only ignore it. The very nature of faith-based opinions is that they do not have supportive evidence; that is to be understood when a person adopts any faith. You can't tell me "what you've said is incorrect", only "what you've said, I've chosen to ignore in favor of my faith".

With all the examples that Heathen has given, plus the hundreds more you could easily look up, it's impossible to say "I follow the Bible's morality, therefore I'm a good person".

You use the word "truth", but what you're specifically speaking of is nothing but a mockery of what the word "truth" actually means.

If someone told you that your wife was cheating on you, or that he had captured big foot, You and pretty much everyone else would only believe them to the extent of the evidence they could produce. But when it comes to your religion, you seem to require no evidence at all.
The religious will accept arguments and "reasons" for their religion that they would never accept as valid for anything else. How can you claim that your religious stories are absolutely true and all the other twenty or so major religions(over a million adherents) and literally thousands of minor religions and sects are all absolutely wrong, when you are all equally uncontaminated by evidence?

What can be sanely considered as truth is done so because the propositions can be tested and verified to at least some minimum standard of logical coherence and consistency. Every religion fails, on every front, to meet even these minimums. If religion could actually prove anything it claims, then belief by faith would be absolutely unnecessary, rather than held as an ideal.

To address your statement that ace (and by implication, I and others like us) wouldn't read your websites. I can assure you that thoughtful atheists have read everything the brightest among you have had to say. We have read much more of the bible than the vast majority of those that claim to believe it. We also tend to have read many of the religious texts of other major religons as well.

I absolutely understand what the consequences are of not believing in god and jesus as claimed by your religion. I face an eternity of never ending pain and suffering. A torture that never allows even the briefest respite and will never, ever, end.

I also am aware that your religion absolutely dictates that I, by telling my children to think critically and rationally and challenge every unsubstantiated claim, are condemning the very people I love the most in all the world to this same unending suffering. Someone that would risk those consequences better have some REALLY good reasons to do so.

Yet, I am not in the least concerned. And it is because I have no good reason to be concerned. I feel the same unconcern for the punishments of your religion that you feel for the punishments of Islam. The myths of christianity are no less ludicrous than the myths of Odin, Zeus, Amun-Ra or any other host of forgotten gods. All are based in the very same ignorance of the infancy of our human society and species.

Similar to your “example” about David not being accurate, neither are these. I will address these, but soon I will post a more general response to difficulties I have and that I struggle with…..and that us moderns have when trying living by faith in a loving God who does not always seem loving from our perspective. To me, that is more interesting and applicable to each of our lives.

Slavery is part of the human condition. Freedom is an illusion. That, speaking from broad philosophical terms.

continued...

Slavery was part of the world culture at the time things were written. Conquering nations commonly indentured the conquered (according to my limited understanding of history). Reading each of the passages (all linked below), it is very easy to see that God loves the slaves and is setting things up so masters/employers love their staff. It is also easy to see that God wants mutual love and respect between them. Read them and see for yourself that I am not blowing smoke here.

There is a “year of jubilee” that God established to relinquish ownership of slaves. This slavery is not the slavery we saw in America, but much more like the “slavery” we see in pro sports – God invented unrestricted free agency!

Exodus 21:2-10
Leviticus 25:39-55
Ephesians 6:5-9
Colossians 3:22-24
1 Timothy 6:1
Titus 2:2:6-12
1 Peter 2:15-21

Continued...