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choosing the "correct" religion
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choosing the "correct" religion
Oh by the way, relative to the sub-thread in which the idea of God helping man was the issue, be sure to check out the latest National Geographic. In a nutshell, they report on excavations at a religious shrine in Turkey that predates Stonehenge by 7000 years, and has been the spark of a theory of social evolution that has religion, not agriculture, was the formative impetus for the development of society. In general terms, and acknowledging that NG isn't "hard science", I'd say that was a significant contibution, wouldn't you?
Originally Posted by
The source of my passion is simply that I am incredulous that people still embrace so many supernatural notions in the Age of Reason.
Thanks for explaining that Ace D. It is good to know a little more about where you are coming from.
On question: What is the "Age of Reason"? You've mentioned that a few times. I did a few searches on that and am now more confused than I was when I started. Can you explain what you mean by this please?
bazillion: Yes, you are absolutely right that religion has had huge contributions to the development of society, and that is very interesting. However, that does not mean that the teachings of any religion are correct. I feel that today we are able to shed this ancient baggage and understand the world more humbly (not painting humans as some sort of chosen species, a geocentric universe, etc.) and in scientific terms.
Dave: When I refer to our time, and roughly the past two centuries, as the Age of Reason, I am speaking largely about the rise of modern science. We now have tools now that weren't available to humans when almost every currently existing religious doctrine came into existence (Scientology and Mormonism are exceptions). The telescope and microscope are, in my opinion, the two most significant, but still only the tip of the iceberg. We have learned that illness is caused by bacteria, not demons. The Earth is a tiny insignificant speck, not the center of the universe. The universe contains enough stars that every person alive today would be able to personally own 11 trillion of them, each star having the potential to host planets with conditions that are ideal for the rise of life just like our planet. To view ourselves as special in the eyes of a proposed creator is insanely Earth-centered, wishful thinking. These "big questions" have been "answered" by religion in the past, and now re-answered by using careful study and observation. I feel that this trend will certainly continue until humans no longer feel the need to rely upon superstitious answers to explain remaining questions such as those relating to human consciousness, the recipe for life, the origin of the universe, and countless others.
I feel very fortunate to live in a time when a vast number of these types of questions have been answered, so that I have the privilege of removing myself from religion.
The Bible was written when this was the understanding of our surroundings as endorsed by the Church:
Many of the first scientists to openly question this model were put to death by the Church. I feel the Bible has so many examples of information that is just plainly incorrect, along these same lines, that the entire work needs to be questioned very thoroughly.
You know, the "Church" put to death lots of Christians too (read up on the radical reformation if interested). Scientists are not a unique club in that regard. History has tons of examples of power-hungry and economically ambitious (aka greedy) people doing lots of horrible things. The "Church" is not a unique club in that regard. Sinful people do sinful things.
Just because they were holding up a moniker of "The Church" does not mean what they did was following Jesus or that they were being obedient to God:
The #1 commandment from God in relationship to other people is to "love your neighbor as yourself." Do the atrocities carried out by the "Church" sound more like people truly following Jesus or the actions of a power-hungry organization?
On a different note, you make it sound like following Jesus and agreeing with the evidences put forth by science (or working in science) are mutually exclusive. That is illogical.
Originally Posted by
The Earth is a tiny insignificant speck, not the center of the universe. The universe contains enough stars that every person alive today would be able to personally own 11 trillion of them, each star having the potential to host planets with conditions that are ideal for the rise of life just like our planet. To view ourselves as special in the eyes of a proposed creator is insanely Earth-centered, wishful thinking. These "big questions" have been "answered" by religion in the past, and now re-answered by using careful study and observation.
I totally agree that in proportion to the universe, earth truly is insignificant. Me as a person am several trillionths less significant than that. It is because of that that makes it special that the Creator cares for me. You got the right ideas, but have gotten it backwards.
Talking about the the unknown vastness that is the universe, how do you know we are not at the center? I am not proposing that we are, but you have made a scientificky claim that I would like you to back up.
Again, you should have phrased that "I
that there is a creator who cares for me". You cannot state a faith-based claim as fact. Telling me I have gotten it backwards is just stating your beliefs, and does qualify as disproving anything I have said.
I can't prove that the Earth is not the center of the entire universe, but factually it is not even the center of our galaxy- just one among billions. Are you aware of Hubble's deep space photographs? It was pointed at a patch of sky thought to be empty, and a week-long exposure was taken. When we know that our planet is not the center of our own solar system or even our galaxy, it is preposterous to assume that it has a central location in the entire universe.
Probably need to drag the image to desktop and re-size it in order to have any hope of viewing...
Rodney - between Olorin's post and mine (I was making the same point, in more generic terms) I think we have it covered already. Name the other world religions where God is the primary initiator of a relationship with man. Name another world religion where justice is served by God himself taking punishment in place of man's. Name another world religion where their God became man and made his dwelling amongst his people.
All well and good. However, to reiterate, do you UNDERSTAND that there is not one single non-Christian on the planet that would admit that those reasons are more valid than the reasons of other religions? Do you UNDERSTAND that believers in other religions truly believe, just as strongly as you, that THEIR reasons for THEIR god are truly the correct ones?
I kinda like thinking about the "Ultimate Reality", the name of this group. Are we just monkeys flinging poo? -- that is, are we just the EXTREMELY fortunate result of evolution and chance? Or is there something more? Something higher we don't understand (yet?)? Something spiritual?
What I DON'T like, and what I can't stand, are people claiming they "know", and that their "belief" is right.
I don't know if there's something more. How could I? I BELIEVE there isn't anything more, but I don't KNOW.
However, I *DO* *KNOW*, with certainty, that IF there is something more, its name isn't "God", and it didn't manifest itself as "Jesus" 2000 years ago.
That is logic. That is reason.
Well put, Grodney. It's been said to deaf ears before in this very same forum, but thanks for re-summarizing what I feel are my points as well as yours.
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