It is a sad day.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked sloRoll, and FWIW I don't want you to leave.

You'd be surprised to know that I'm as outspoken on these issues in person as I am online. Indeed most of my friends and family adhere to some faith based belief systems and yes, I'm the black sheep when it comes to discussion of religion. This stuff is in my face every day, whether in person or the media, and I relish any opportunity to speak out and challenge the faithful.

You're not mistaken to try and discuss these things, but you are mistaken to think you can do so without answering to your doctrine's absurdities. I mean, I'm sure you're a logical, sane and good person ... so how can you seriously say you believe in virgin birth, resurrection, talking snake, the ark, jonah's whale, etc etc?!
The onus is on those who make claims to prove them, not on those who don't believe to disprove them.

So, what have you to say about the "Holocaust of Children" as discussed in the paper?

I'll take a crack at addressing the abstract. I skimmed the summary, but if Gregory Paul's abstract does even a mediocre job at capturing the essence of his paper, it is not worth my time since I do not adhere to the theology espoused......since the Bible does not espouse this:

Let's call that part of a human that goes to heaven the ZZ. How do we know the maturity level of an infant's ZZ? From where does the idea that an infant's ZZ is an automaton originate? Where in the Bible does it explain where the ZZ comes from, what sin does to it, how does mature consent relate to it, how is it tied into the mind and the emotions and the spirit?

If someone validates from the Bible that what the author espouses is how it works, I will provide further explanation on how to handle the "problem of evil and suffering".

You see, I suspect that what we have here is a 25 page long strawman argument. So, can someone please explain to me how this is not a strawman argument?

Dave, you made the statement elsewhere that "truth" is found only in Jesus. And being biblically based, you believe this, yes? How then, can a deceased immature child not exposed to the "truth in Jesus" be anything more than an automaton, a tabula rasa, if they're allowed into heaven?
It's clear, if you've got children, that they are "blank slates" at birth, indoctrinated and programmed with whatever belief system they happened to be born into. Now, if you're going to suggest that unborn and infant children already know the "truth in Jesus" you've got some 'splainin to do...

Not sure what this has to do with the discussion at hand, but yes and no depending on how you slice and dice this: Yes - in that Jesus is the Truth and he is "over all, in all and through all" and so when truth is observed, Truth is observed. No - in that Truth is not observed only in recognized religious contexts.

You are talking about the child's brain. You are making an assertion that needs a basis in order to be accepted. My questions above about the child's ZZ need to be answered to form a basis from which you can then work your arguments that heaven is filled with automatons (or "automations" as the "scholarly" article calls them in one place - p 11 of the .pdf).

Try again please - you're the one with some 'splainin to do...

Dave, do you think immature, deceased or unborn children and fetuses make it into heaven without ever hearing the "truth" that is found only in Jesus? I mean, isn't a human supposed to be "born again" becoming "spiritually alive" before being able to enter the gates of heaven? What do you think happens to all those billions of children who haven't been "born again?"

Mr Mirth – sorry for the slow response on this – have only now gotten the time to capture a little of what I want to say on this.

Since you have not attempted to answer the questions I posed, I will give my best shot at them. I hope it comes out clear enough to understand (not that I am expecting you to agree).

continued....

I’m not sure how much study you have done outside the Catholic faith's take on things including scouring the Bible for this, but simply put and despite various faiths' doctrines and traditions (many of them are contradictory in this subject), the Bible does not give us any exact recipes or formulas on how a person becomes born again.

Nor does the Bible ever specify the where the soul* comes from or in what state it comes into the world in when a new baby is born (is it a blank slate, sinless, sinful…?). Neither is there a scientific level explanation/schematic of how the body interplays with the emotions/will and the human spirit….and then the indwelling Holy Spirit of believers (*that's why I called that part of a person that goes to heaven the ZZ. It is not clear where the human mind/will stop and the spiritual part starts).

There are doctrines of Original Sin and opposing doctrines of Age of Accountability (neither directly found in the Bible)….depending on the faith traditions in question. There are also various examples in the Bible of how Christian conversion happens that make it unreasonable to pin a formulaic approach to that. And, there is very little information on how God's judgment works. These are all areas where there is interplay between humanness and “spirtitualness”. It makes sense to me since the spiritual realm is beyond what we can fully comprehend as humans.

continued...


People who want to be lawyers and put God (and all things spiritual) on trial versus their understanding of “fair” and “just” and “logical” will most likely find this all very frustrating.

People who simply realize that the very nature of time (esp as it relates to eternity/forever) is beyond the scope of the human mind and human experience will have less of a problem with the humility needed to accept that there is a reality outside of what we can scientifically measure.

In general, we can catch glimpses at times of what “lies beyond” (and that gives great hope!), but we simply do not and cannot know the exact details.

... not until we get there, anyway ...

... and maybe not even then.