If there is a god, and you believe he is omnipotent, omnipresent, & omniscient (3 Omni's) then read on. This is what I long to understand.

Nothing you do in this life is not already know to your god. You can't upset him or piss him off. He knew all the things that you may do already. Your destiny is already pre-determined. Remember he knows everything. He can tell you how your life will end and he can't be wrong.

Free will? There really is no such thing if you believe he has the 3 Omni's. You can't have it both ways, because you're ending is already know to him. Your choices are already planned for you. You can't change it.

So why waste time worshipping him when your fate is already out of your hands? And what kind of loving god requires you to worship him? There is no such thing. That is what evil wants you to do; bow down and worship. If god has the 3 Omni's, he doesn't need worship from us tiny specs of dust in the universe. If you look at it outside of yourself, thinking you are so important to god can be viewed as self-indulgent.

So, if you believe in the 3 Omni's of god, how can any religion or even simply believing in god matter?

These are really good questions! What makes it even worse is that Scripture has plenty of places were it talks of God in these terms (the 3 O's) and plenty of other places where that does not seem to be the case (God does get angry, he does change his mind based on the pleas of humans, things do not go according to what he says his plan is, etc).

.....And what makes it even worse is that (on top of the issues you point out) the way different schools of thought within Christianity have handled this. Some of the main demarcation lines between denominations (both major and sub-denominations) are drawn along these very lines. The differences between Catholic/Protestant are a little more complex, but there is a big divide in Protestantism between these 2 camps where it is easy to see these lines you point out:

Calvinism starts off with the 3 O's and says God is the primary initiator towards reconcilliation between himself and man. Predestination, Election, Eternal Security etc. Man responds to that irresistible call. It is tough to tap dance around the charge of God being a grand puppeteer in this theology.

Arminianism says "No - God loves mankind and respects mankind and his ability to choose. And, God is fair/just so people end up with him or away from him based on what they want." It is tough to tap dance around the 3 O's in this theology since man's free will gets in the way of that.

Now, both of these camps have plenty of Scripture to back up their positions. And they do back up their positions fiercely and compete by seeing who can build the more water-tight case and perform the best philosophical gymnastics to twist any scripture that contradicts their position......and in many cases they throw the term "heretic" back and forth at each other.

Pretty messed up!

Thanks for saying all of that Dave242. It is nice to know you see this too and it means a lot to me that you took the time to write all of that. I just wish I could understand how one gets passed this and can still have blind faith knowing it is a huge contradiction in their belief to the point where it can't be sorted out.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I first thought about this when a pastor was explaining to us that god exists "outside of time" so that god exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future...was all powerful and all loving and all that...and I found this very confusing especially as it related to god's time on earth as a man as well as the "appearances" by god throughout history and wondered, why, if god is outside of time, does he seem to exist in a linear manner....
But now this is all based on literal teachings of the bible, once you step away from taking the bible literally, you begin to step away from christianity...

Well, Donovan - the good news is that it can be sorted out……and it has a lot to do with what Wayne is talking about. I am very interested to see if the next few posts make any sense to you (or anyone else).

First compare God to man:

As you see, God is quite different from us! Polar opposites in most areas listed.

The cornerstone belief in “orthodox” Christianity is that in Jesus, God became Man…...God in the flesh, God incarnate, God with us. That is nuts since you see from the table above that the natures of God and Man are contradictory. But it is true….and it is a true paradox (seemingly contradictory things that are nonetheless true). Just as Wayne’s comments, it makes sense that something spiritual is a mystery to us who are not. Would anyone expect anything else? Can you think of a better way that a Spiritual God could possibly communicate himself to us?

What convinces me that this paradoxical nature of Jesus is true is that Scripture has a whole bunch of paradoxical themes in it (free will versus predestination, earning favor in God’s eyes versus unmerited favor from him, being eternally secure that you will be right with God no matter what versus the ability to fall from grace, etc).

In the gospel of John chapter one we read something very interesting. The message of Jesus is his Word (Scripture)……but you also see that Jesus IS the Word. So, it makes perfect sense that the paradoxical nature of Jesus would be reflected in Scripture! The essence of Scripture is a Person…..and indeed Truth is a Person (not a list of propositions or a moral code).

On top of this, when a person becomes a Christian he is forgiven, comes into a reconciled relationship with God, and is somehow in-dwelt with God’s Spirit…..he passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. This may sound hokey, but you can hear Christians’ stories over and over again confirming that something does indeed change “inside”. It is not at all that somehow Christians are now God…..scripture likens it to now being able to see/experience spiritual things as looking at a reflection though a very dirty mirror. But, to some extent Christians share in the same Spirit/Man paradox once this change happens.

I may well have lost you by now, but hopefully not. Either way, it is fair to ask, “so what?!”

Well, I think the way that different people will live out this paradoxical existence might look very different, but here is how I approach the paradox of Jesus, paradoxical Scripture, and me (who somehow lives very close to this paradox):

When I am praying I could go nuts trying to change God’s mind. Or, I could say a half-hearted prayer since God already knows and will do what he sovereignly will do anyways….or maybe just not pray at all. But instead, I put those two paradoxical truths together as closely as I can and know that somehow the essence of Jesus is present……and I look for him at work in/near the situation and try to join him in what he is already doing.

Or, when I am talking to a non-believer on a level that I want him to understand spiritual things, I could go nuts thinking it is up to me that he gets it…..and this might be his one chance so I better nail it and convince him or he will not have another chance to go to Heaven. Or, I could just go half-baked since God chooses those he chooses anyhow and I am just talking since the Bible says we should. Again, instead I try to relax and do my best and look for Jesus to “appear” somewhere and somehow in the situation.

Jesus said something profound while walking the earth: “I only do what I see my Father doing. I do nothing on my own”. If that was good enough for him, it ought to be good enough for me.

Dang that was a lot of typing! I hope at least one person slogs through it and can give some thoughts.