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-   -   Pro and AM mixed groups (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72321)

Pete Kenny 09-10-2012 07:28 PM

Pro and AM mixed groups
 
I play Pro Grandmaster. When I play in tournaments I prefer to play with people in my division, or at least other Pros.

Section 1.6 of the Competition Manual says I am entitled to that.

There are TDs who like to mix all divisions for the first round of a tourney. By the time I realize what they are doing it is often too late to do anything about it.

The TD either doesn't know the rule or doesn't care and does it because they prefer to.

What can I do so this doesn't happen?

I've tried calling out TDs at the time - doesn't matter.
I've complained to the PDGA - doesn't matter.
I've called the TD out on local message boards - it doesn't matter but does piss off lots of people.

When I bring it up I get dozens of comments from people who say they like it with mixed groups. I couldn't care less. I am entitled to play with my competitors.

Suggestions?

Cgkdisc 09-10-2012 07:32 PM

Recognize that Ams are really Pros playing for merch instead of cash. With ams being allowed to play in pro divisions and pros play in am divisions, it really doesn't matter any more. Your Pro GM division could only have ams in it. I know I've had Am GMs play up with me in Pro GM before so we had 3 to make a division.

mashnut 09-10-2012 07:36 PM

It sounds like nobody else around you has a problem with that practice, especially since it's only the first round. If others cared, they wouldn't play those tournaments and the TD would get the message.

Pete Kenny 09-10-2012 07:38 PM

I prefer to recognize the Competition Manual and what it entitles me to. If they change it, I will deal with it but right now I am entitled to playing with other pros.

Casual round? Tag round? etc? Bring on the Ams. In a PDGA tourney, I want the PDGA rules followed.

Is that asking too much?

Pete Kenny 09-10-2012 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mashnut (Post 1601841)
It sounds like nobody else around you has a problem with that practice, especially since it's only the first round. If others cared, they wouldn't play those tournaments and the TD would get the message.

So it would be OK to run a tourney and at the players meeting announce for this tourney I am not allowing forehands. If people don't like it they don't have to come back and play next year.

Is that really your answer? Just Use whatever rules you want and ignore the rest?

Cgkdisc 09-10-2012 07:45 PM

There's a difference between core rules of the game and competition guidelines like how players are grouped. Our sport is you against the course, not really against the other players. We simply compare scores at the end in arbitrary divisions and rank those scores for prizes. It's not really direct competition like tennis where your score is directly impacted by who you compete against.

For what it's worth, I think the PDGA made a mistake not allowing mixed groups in the first round in writing. Maybe it will be changed at some point. On the other hand, it might just remain as it is and just not be called somewhat similar to foot faults.

Pete Kenny 09-10-2012 07:56 PM

I just want a level playing field.

You can't tell me it makes no difference playing with other pros vs playing with rec players. Kinda hard to get into a rhythm while others are taking 6 shots to get near the basket, moving and talking at inappropriate times, etc.

Then some folks I am playing against play with advanced players and don't have to deal with that.

So you are OK if one of your competitors brings his barking dog along with him for the tourney round? After all, that is only a competition guideline.

I am clearly a minority in wanting the PDGA rules and Competition Manual guidelines followed.
Which is one big reason why my 12 yr olds kids will still be playing for each others entry fees some day in the distant future.

DavidSauls 09-10-2012 08:02 PM

I'm with Pete. Though perhaps not as vehemently.

There are a few events around here that routinely mix divisions in the first round and, though there are some nice things about it, there are also drawbacks.

But one of the attractions of attending a PDGA-sanctioned event is a reasonable expectations that standards will be upheld, and I know what to expect. It's not like when I register for a non-sanctioned event, and I know that the divisions, payouts, and all the rest might differ greatly for the norm.

To say the Pros are really Ams and the Ams are really Pros so what does it matter, is a copout. My competitors are the ones playing in the same division against me that weekend. Pete doubtlessly feels the same.

mashnut 09-10-2012 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Kenny (Post 1601847)
So it would be OK to run a tourney and at the players meeting announce for this tourney I am not allowing forehands. If people don't like it they don't have to come back and play next year.

Is that really your answer? Just Use whatever rules you want and ignore the rest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Kenny (Post 1601868)

I am clearly a minority in wanting the PDGA rules and Competition Manual guidelines followed.
Which is one big reason why my 12 yr olds kids will still be playing for each others entry fees some day in the distant future.

You made a slippery slope argument and pulled the holding the sport back card in the first few posts about the topic? I think you'd make your point better and in a way people might listen to if you stuck to the merits of your actual argument. You bring up the idea of possibly having different levels of competition and etiquette when mixed with other divisions, that's a fair point. FWIW, that could be an opportunity to teach those newer players about tournament etiquette. Letting them know early in the round that they're expected to follow the rules and what kind of behavior is expected might just solve that problem if you went into it with a good attitude.

I also don't necessarily disagree that the PDGA guidelines should be adhered to as much as possible, but it's not there's a huge waiting list to be the TD for your local C tier. It sounds like you expect the PDGA to discipline the TDs for these digressions from the competition manual, that sounds like a recipe for keeping the sport from growing to me if you turn off the volunteers who make our competition opportunities possible.

TonyAPE12 09-10-2012 08:14 PM

The state games event every year in Nebraska plays the first round with mixed groups. If everybody were playing the same layout, I wouldn't have a problem with this (although I do feel that I play better with equal or better competition). However, when some people in my group were playing different tee pads than me, it really threw off my game. In my opinion, divisions should be with divisions. But, as a TD, I have at times put the last two am Masters with the last two Pro Masters so that there was a full card. I try not to do this as best as I can, but sometimes it's necessary. I will not have people playing different layouts on the same card though.


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