Designing Harder “GREENS”

[steveo69]

I have thought about this before also. I would love the chance to design a course. Below are a few ideas I have had. The red is the basket and the green would be bushes. The bushes would have to be trimmed often. They would be about as tall if not a foot taller than the top of the basket and impenetrable by a disc. The bushes also would be about twenty to thirty feet away from the basket. In the pic you would be teeing off in the direction of the arrow. These are just a few ways my brain has come up with.

[Monocacy]

I agree with this part:

(from the PDGA): "An object near the target should never be so large that a player cannot find an unobstructed flight path by stretching sideways, throwing from a low stance, throwing through or over the top of the object."

. . . and somewhat disagree with this:

(also from the PDGA): "There should not be too many objects within 33 ft (10m) of each target."

I suppose it depends on your definition of "too many objects", but a completely clear circle sounds dull. Obstacles that force you to change your stance or flight path (or both) make the putt and the approach more challenging and therefore more interesting.

Baskets on a steep slope (or on the edge of a drop-off) force you to control your distance and stick the landing, both legitimate tests of skill. Steeply-sloped greens force the player to make choces - lay up, or risk a rollaway if you doink your putt. As mentioned previously, baskets near water force risk-reward decision-making.

[biscoe]

Originally Posted by disc gopher

trees 20 feet or closer are just bad course design.

absolute balderdash...

[bholy08]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_i...028&p=0e3f616c

not the pic i wanted but the basket is on the side of the levee...tough approach and risky putt from above or below!

Also i have seen a basket on a now closed course with the enclosed on a 6 foot high hedge around 3/4 of the basket

[New013]

my practice course has a 325ft carry over OB, through a 50' gap between trees at 265', a 30' gap at 310', with the basket sitting 30' past the OB.

of course you could go over the trees.. if you can.

OR you can be lame and go all the way around the OB.

[bholy08]

also there is a temp course with a neat hole location, the hole is 200 ft straight then 100 feet up a sharp hill with the basket set off about 30 feet from the top of the hill and under a tree with thick low hanging branches, i mean like 6ft. from the ground so approaches have to come in low

[New013]

now that i think about it, Buckhorn has a couple of good examples where the greens are super risk reward.

#15 is a 228ft straight shot that goes down in to a small valley but the comes back up on a steep hill where the basket sits in the middle of a strip of land about 20' deep that is the bank of a pond.

if you go for the basket and miss you either splash or nail one of two trees behind the basket on the edge of the bank. here's a pic from the tee, can't really tell how crazy the basket position is.



#17 is a 300' or 400' shot down through a gap, over a pond where the basket sits about 30' past the pond back up a small hill. if you go past it's a rough putt back because a lot of discs that sail go in the drink. i can only say that most people don't go for it off the tee unless you have a throwaway disc.

[E_Rock25]

Thanks everyone for all the response's....

harr0140 - anytime you are around it would be great to have you come by the course.

disc gopher - I respectfully disagree with you. I think having obstacles as close as 5' make greens very interesting as long as you can shape a line around the obstruction or miniver your body to get a clean line to the basket. I don't even mind a basket in between two trees as long as there is not more than 1 or 2 such pins on any given 18 hole course. IMO its not a gimmick if you are forced to place your upshot well to have a chance at a putt as long as it is not overdone.

Monocacy - I completely agree with your post.

New13 - I really appreciate the input but I really want to focus on just the green, not how you get there. I understand that the fairway should influence the green but in this thread I would like to stick to the green. I am also going to try as hard as I can to stay away from roped O.B. and do have some water to work with so there will be some holes that require a water carry to a green that is located near the edge of the water. I do like the green descriptions in your last post and I will be incorporating some of those things into Somerset's green design.

Please everyone keep the suggestions coming and try to think outside the box. I am thinking about sand traps that are pee rock that make footing an issue. Greens with multiple levels and rolling mounds to change the elevation of a putt. One putt might be basket high while a put 5' away might be 2' lower. Large rocks that would make jump putting a no go. I will get some sketches up tomorrow to illustrate some of these ideas.

Thanks again everyone.

[Peterb]

Erik,
some of the more memorable greens I can think of:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course...2/9ac5b436.jpg
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course...2/a5bf38f4.jpg

Whistler's Bend #9: a 300 foot downhll drive with cliffs behind the basket leading directly into the umpqua river

Delaveaga 12: Basket sometimes is set on this narrow berm. Makes putting really interesting.

17 @ Bryant Lake Park in MN This one should really interest you since it is the nicest landscaping I've seen on a DG course.

Jordan Creek 10 The basket is at the top of a rock slope. Fun!

Warwick hole 3 Basket up on top of a cliff

And check out at hole 14 at 4:58 in this video This might be my favorite pin area of all time.

All of these natural hazards can be man made and I think that this is the next evolution in course design as well.

[Dave242]

Here is a concept that worked out really well design-wise and made the hole play extremely well. I have not seen it used elsewhere and it does make a challenging green.....but in combination with the entire hole design.

As you see here, it is a downhill hole with the basket sitting over a bank and it is behind a chainlink fence.



OB lurks long and also the entire length of the fairway on the right:



View from left of fairway:



The main challenge element of the green is when getting caught behind the chainlink fence and having a 30-40' downhill putt throwing over a chest-high fence (altered throwing motion).

I guess what I am proposing is basically the equivalent of a golf sand trap - a device that forces you to execute a different sort of shot to recover from a less-than-ideal upshot (or drive).

I have seen palmetto bushes in FL used in similar manner, but never in combination with terrain and OB.