Clockwise/Counter-clockwise

[Matt B.]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

re #1 vs. #18

Personally, I want to see #18 be a deciding hole---one where a 2 or perhaps even 3 stroke lead isn't entirely safe.

My preference for #1 as a good starting hole is that it be a little more forgiving. I particularly like starting holes to be fairly open, where you can throw a handful of warmup shots if you want. Of course you can do so anywhere, but a tight technical hole, where you may be kicking off into the woods and searching for multiple discs, doesn't work nearly as well for me.

So, all things being equal---which, of course, they never are---I'm in the "great last hole" camp.

Couple of great points here and food for thought - thanks for considering the question and answering it even though it's hypothetical. The point about the starting hole is a good one, I hadn't thought about that.

[DavidSauls]

It's a little more than hypothetical. It's something designers can consider, if the property allows it. I know designers have to weigh various factors and compromise to make the best overall course. And they're stuck with holes 1 & 18 being near where cars can park.

And, as I said, that's my personal taste. I began on a course where #18 is perhaps the most dynamic in the layout---Earlewood. Later, when I'd play a course with blander finishing holes so you had to make your move by Hole 16, it just didn't seem quite right.

When I had the chance to co-design our private course, the features and the parking area allowed us to make great #1 and #18 holes. By our standards, of course; hole 1 is an open shot off a big hill, an invitation to empty the bag. #18 is very high-risk. Our compromise? The fairways cross, generally a big negative and something you'd never do on a public course.

[Cgkdisc]

As an aside, I'm not against making 17 the real cool, tough, long or swing hole and then having maybe a tricky but twoable 18th hole as a means of recovering a shot on your last hole. There are many more casual rounds played on a course where 18 is the last hole than tournament rounds. And tourney rounds are usually shotgun start so the impact hole 18 may have on players as their "last hole" is minimal except the top group.

[RKelly]

I agree with both David and Chuck. Hole 1 should be a relatively easy birdie and finish with hole 18 or 17 and 18 being relatively hard birdie. This makes the end of the round / tournament a potential game changer. Obviously, for the tournament's lead card or in casual rounds.

[denny ritner]

Originally Posted by RKelly

Hole 1 should be a relatively easy birdie

I disagree with that one. I don't think the first hole should be a gift for those that haven't warmed up before the round. I think the first hole needs to set the tone for the course.

[BogeyNoMore]

Interesting thread, and I really appreciate all these designer's points. I like D. Saul's point about 1st hole being open, with 18 something that can decide a close round. Also agree with Denny that 1st hole should be a "gimme" deuce - I'm all for a course having an Ace run, or two sure, but don't start the course off with it.

But to elaborate on what someone already said; CW vs CCW course flow doesn't necessarily have to favor fairways turning one way or another... and if the course is designed well, nice shot balance can be achieved no matter how the holes flow. Simply having water to incorporate into a course is a luxury designer's don't always have, let alone being able work holes on multiple sides of it to balance lefty/righty risk.

[optidiscic]

I have a practice hole at my course with a concrete tee...it's a 190 foot throw to a basket in a field....then hole 1 is a tough line to hit and a demanding par 3

my final hole is short par 3 with lots of water that is typically a 2 or a 4.....I am in the process of making my 17th hole quite a dastardly challenge as well

[RKelly]

Originally Posted by denny ritner

I disagree with that one. I don't think the first hole should be a gift for those that haven't warmed up before the round. I think the first hole needs to set the tone for the course.

I agree that it shouldn't be a gift, just RELATIVELY easy. As in, not the hardest hole on the course.