Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

Originally Posted by Shade

John,
I am in the process of rerouting a fairway on the Trophy Lakes course in Charleston (SC) and have a question about ob lines. The new fairway, a par four, is located in the general vacinity of areas occupied by non disc golf itmes (my tent {home}, etc). I will be installing ob lines on both sides of the fairway to define it's limitations. There are mature pine trees that can be used for 'guideposts'. I'd like your thoughts on placing the: a) ob lines in a direct line with the trees, b) on the outside or c)the inside (in relation to the fairway). Thanks in advance...Shade Hogg, PDGA # 4030

Hey, Shade --

Great to hear from you. Sorry to take so long on the reply.

I'm not a big fan of unnatural OB, but sometimes you need it to ensure safety (same goes for mandos) or for other reasons. Obviously I don't know all the details of your hole, but I tend to make in in-bounds area bigger if I can, so I would probably use the OB side of the tree to define the line.

The other advantage of using the edge of the tree is that a player could run a string between two trees to determine OB at any point. Hope that helps.

[harr0140]

I just finally listened to your interview on DGTR . . . unfortunately I was unable to be there when it was live (because of the weekly glow league I am running this fall) as I would have been active in the discussion for sure. I just started a business The Disc Golf Experience LLC to run a few leagues and tourneys but most importantly I want to design courses. I have a 20 year career in lawn and landscape management. . . and golf course management. I have a horticulture degree so I know plant material and trees, plus I spent 20 years maintaining turf and designing, installing, and maintaining landscapes. I think I have something to offer to the sport with my work history and my experiences. How do I go about finding places to design courses? How did you begin the process of designing courses? Did you just start calling parks departments?

One thing you mentioned in the interview was sustainability, something I have been talking about in my course reviews for a while now, something I feel is extremely important to courses remaining in the ground for a long time, which is obviously important for the longevity of the sport. We can avoid so many things with proper design, but just as importantly proper installation. How do you make sure that parks departments and the laborers accomplish what is desired from your design?

I have so many more questions, and will continue to ask them as I feel the need. I hope to be designing a couple courses next year when I will have more time, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share with all of us out there. I have already spent some time with Chuck Kennedy on a couple of properties and have appreciated his input on how he goes about the process.

I am thankful I was able to play Circle R 2 years ago when we came through TX. We did get to meet Dee but you were out of town for a design somewhere. I was hoping to meet up (to ask some questions) with you while we were in town, but am thankful we were able to play the courses.

Bottom line . . . thank you for your effort and your candidness of the things you do during the desgn process.

[JimDK27]

Hi, John! I'm designing a private 9 hole course on some family land and it is mostly open with a few interesting features that I would like to include. However, to do this I have what I feel like others may view as long walks from a hole to the next tee area. I was wondering if there a distance you feel is too long for this situation? It is about a football field worth of zig-zagging down a hill and around another tee (which is for the previous hole).

[mubhcaeb78]

John,
I like reading your articles in the pdga magazine. I built a 9 hole course, and look to improve it, making it the best in the area for challenge, but not frustration.

In your opinion, should a hole's bad shot force you to make multiple attempts to correct the course? As in, instead of making 2 shots to get where 1 should have gone, it really takes you 3-5.

Take for instance #4 at Blue Ribbon Pines.
If you get off line, and hit a tree, you threw a bad shot, punishable. With the double line of trees, you can't predictably shoot your 2nd shot forward to where a good first shot will land. So it can take you 3+ shots to land where 1 shot could have.

I have one hole that is a left-right anny (RHBH) down hill that if you can't keep your right angle, your disc will turn into brush/trees on the left, and it will cause you much the same hassle as BRP4. It is not very long, able to be placed close enough to shoot for a 2, but going into the brush can cause an easy 5+. The brush is 4-6' and there are tall trees that will stop hammer/etc throws.

There has been requests to clear it out to make it easier.

I am not sure what to do since so many like BRP4 for the difficulty.

Should I keep each hole equal in the punishment? Should one bad throw on any hole carry equal weight on the score card?

Thanks for your time!

[cydisc]

Just wanted to extend my sympathy for the passing of your two children (Rolling Meadow and Circ Hill) in Wimberley.

Sorry.... getting all verklempt...

[grodney]

Regarding the passing of RM and CH:

WHYYYYYYYYY!!!?!?!?!!!!!

[johnrhouck]

Originally Posted by mubhcaeb78

John,
I like reading your articles in the pdga magazine. I built a 9 hole course, and look to improve it, making it the best in the area for challenge, but not frustration.

In your opinion, should a hole's bad shot force you to make multiple attempts to correct the course? As in, instead of making 2 shots to get where 1 should have gone, it really takes you 3-5.

Take for instance #4 at Blue Ribbon Pines.
If you get off line, and hit a tree, you threw a bad shot, punishable. With the double line of trees, you can't predictably shoot your 2nd shot forward to where a good first shot will land. So it can take you 3+ shots to land where 1 shot could have.

I have one hole that is a left-right anny (RHBH) down hill that if you can't keep your right angle, your disc will turn into brush/trees on the left, and it will cause you much the same hassle as BRP4. It is not very long, able to be placed close enough to shoot for a 2, but going into the brush can cause an easy 5+. The brush is 4-6' and there are tall trees that will stop hammer/etc throws.

There has been requests to clear it out to make it easier.

I am not sure what to do since so many like BRP4 for the difficulty.

Should I keep each hole equal in the punishment? Should one bad throw on any hole carry equal weight on the score card?

Thanks for your time!

That's a really important question, Mub. My bottom line is that I think disc golf is more enjoyable when the punishment fits the crime.

As it turns out, my next article in the PDGA magazine addresses this very issue. I just got back from Pittsboro, NC, where I'm designing a new championship course. We've been working hard to implement design features that ensure that small mistakes don't result in big penalties.

Here's how I look at it. In the example you cite on your course -- where a small mistake can cost you three throws -- going into the rough is worse than going OB! Not only is the punishment severe on your scorecard, it's just no fun to have to try to hack your way out. What mistake is worth a three-throw penalty?

When it comes to the way the game is played, disc golf is clearly superior to ball golf in some ways. In other ways, our much older brother is still way ahead of us. For example, you can make a small mistake in ball golf and wind up in slightly taller grass or maybe in a sand trap. But you can fix it by making a great shot. You have the opportunity to redeem yourself completely and still get a par or even birdie. In disc golf, there are still many situations (like the one you mention) where you're in the rough with no good options. One little mistake, and even par is out the window.

You're right that some players love a real challenge. But I guess my question would be this: do they love the challenge of trying to hit a tough (but fair) fairway, or do they love the challenge of trying to get through 75' of thick rough in fewer than three shots?

This is a difficult problem, and I've been working on solutions for several years, as have others. My goal has been to create something that uses only natural features and does not involve moving your lie. It's not easy, but I'm pleased with what we're doing in Pittsboro, and the details will be in my next article.

[johnrhouck]

Originally Posted by cydisc

Just wanted to extend my sympathy for the passing of your two children (Rolling Meadow and Circ Hill) in Wimberley.

Sorry.... getting all verklempt...

Thanks, Cy. We'll definitely miss them, but life will go on.

I'm focused on looking forward -- I've got lots of other great children, including some currently in, um, gestation, and many more ahead, I hope.

It was a great run; it's not like someone came and knee-capped me before I had a chance to do something memorable. Many of us, especially you and the I-Boys, will always have great memories of Circle R.

[mubhcaeb78]

Thanks, look forward to another good article! Even if some players may disagree, having a reputable source like your articles of design to stand on really helps.

[crashzero]

Originally Posted by johnrhouck

That's a really important question, Mub. My bottom line is that I think disc golf is more enjoyable when the punishment fits the crime.

As it turns out, my next article in the PDGA magazine addresses this very issue. I just got back from Pittsboro, NC, where I'm designing a new championship course. We've been working hard to implement design features that ensure that small mistakes don't result in big penalties.

Here's how I look at it. In the example you cite on your course -- where a small mistake can cost you three throws -- going into the rough is worse than going OB! Not only is the punishment severe on your scorecard, it's just no fun to have to try to hack your way out. What mistake is worth a three-throw penalty?

When it comes to the way the game is played, disc golf is clearly superior to ball golf in some ways. In other ways, our much older brother is still way ahead of us. For example, you can make a small mistake in ball golf and wind up in slightly taller grass or maybe in a sand trap. But you can fix it by making a great shot. You have the opportunity to redeem yourself completely and still get a par or even birdie. In disc golf, there are still many situations (like the one you mention) where you're in the rough with no good options. One little mistake, and even par is out the window.

You're right that some players love a real challenge. But I guess my question would be this: do they love the challenge of trying to hit a tough (but fair) fairway, or do they love the challenge of trying to get through 75' of thick rough in fewer than three shots?

This is a difficult problem, and I've been working on solutions for several years, as have others. My goal has been to create something that uses only natural features and does not involve moving your lie. It's not easy, but I'm pleased with what we're doing in Pittsboro, and the details will be in my next article.

well said, this is what ive been trying to tell people but it never sinks in