Pro Vs. Avg Joe- Skill Gap

[Cgkdisc]

The current target zone height is at 51cm +/-3 (20-21in). Let's say we drop it 25% to a tighter 38cm (15in) +/- 1cm using MJs concept to raise just the basket part 13cm. In theory, 25% more putts would be missed which would be 4.5 per round. However, some initial putts would be close enough to be drop ins and wouldn't be missed regardless. Some of the misses wouldn't be close enough and players could miss a comebacker which will be a bit more difficult. I think we could still end up with 4-5 more shots on the score for scratch players. DG putting might close the current gap between DG and BG putting about halfway.

[sidewinder22]

Isn't disc golf more exciting and more addicting as more longer shots are made? I mean it's like some of you don't like aces? Also won't making putting harder, make it even that much slower play? I hate watching unedited video of putting because it's so slow. Seems like those aspects would decrease new player participation. But hell what do I know, I'm just a loud mouthed schnook...

[Mabuku1]

I say make them like those trash cans that have th ash trays on top. a it has to slide down the hole that's just big enough to fit a condor. then all the guys that are bored with the regulation baskets cab be happy. and we will have a really challenging sport.

[PMcBeth]

Originally Posted by alcstradamus

To the pro-Bullseyewh basket crowed, I think it needs pointed out that many of us who are against it are only against it in the case of making it "exclusive" to the pro tour. If the standard disc golf basket was changed to the Bullseye, then that would be just fine. We want to play the same game that everyone plays, not play on a handicapped course with bigger baskets.

But since it is not feasible to change tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of baskets around the country, and it is also not feasible to retro-fit courses with more difficulty (i.e. distance and trees), we once again come back to the starting point and have to say that everything just needs to stay how it is and people need to quit worrying about how our pro scores look to ball golfers.

I don't agree with making the bullseye type basket exclusive in the long run but why not make a standard for the players who want tougher baskets and courses. Test it for the pros and see if it makes the game more exciting if it does go with it. If not no big deal we have the same game again and the forum is happy still.
What's everyone's thoughts about this?

[Bhoffman09]

I think increasing the difficulty of putting is a route to be thoroughly considered.

When you have guys like MJ and Paul who can shoot -16 or -17 on courses, you're basically maxing out the potential within the round for these guys. What can we do to hinder "maxed out" scores? Increasing the length of courses (more throws) and increasing the difficulty of putting are two possibilities.

[bombmk]

Originally Posted by PMcBeth

I don't agree with making the bullseye type basket exclusive in the long run but why not make a standard for the players who want tougher baskets and courses. Test it for the pros and see if it makes the game more exciting if it does go with it. If not no big deal we have the same game again and the forum is happy still.
What's everyone's thoughts about this?

If it was done with intention of making the change global if found to work, I would have little issue with it. Maybe a little worried that the global change will never take effect if existing baskets cannot be refitted.

Is there a difference between a bullseye and a basket without the outer chains? If the difference is negliable the work required to refit existing baskets seems manageble.

On a more curious note: What do you think it will do to your putting distances, Paul - in terms of decreasing your "comfort zone"?

[Casual Squishy]

Originally Posted by PMcBeth

I don't agree with making the bullseye type basket exclusive in the long run but why not make a standard for the players who want tougher baskets and courses. Test it for the pros and see if it makes the game more exciting if it does go with it. If not no big deal we have the same game again and the forum is happy still.
What's everyone's thoughts about this?

I'm new to DGCR but not to Disc Golf. Threads like these on the internet I usually just read unless I feel that I have something constructive to add (can probably tell that from my post count), but I've read this thread as it's developed and since you asked..

I started playing Disc golf (league and tournament play) around 1987 and played until 2002 and started up again last year after a 10 year break. (injury related, not voluntary) I spent 2012 playing and touring, and the last month or so taking advantage of the internet while it's cold outside to catch up on what i missed in the world of Disc Golf off the course and in the last few days, several years of PDGA minutes and documents.
So much has changed and so much has remained the same.
Even back then, and without much of an internet, every year the same discussions always came up; What should we change? What should we leave alone? And even then there were tons of people who wanted to discuss every little detail of every little detail to death, they just did not have an internet forum to post it on to hear themselves talk. The people making the actual decisions were the proverbial "few people in a room", unharried by those people except at tournaments. Luckily they were mostly the right people for the job over the years and Disc Golf has seen incredible increases in availability and players, but I think the increase of top level players comes just as much from the expansion of the player base as it does from the organizational structuring of events system of the PDGA and the increase of players comes just as much from word of mouth type expansion both for brand new people to the sport and casual players turning tournament players. So far in DG's existance nothing really "BIG" has come along to change that and slow expansion seems to be Disc Golf's destiny. I can't really see top pros making more impressive looking putts on youtube being better press for Disc Golf then the myraid of ace montages already out there and if there is one thing inseperable from Disc Golf it's the ace mentality; Everyone who's ever picked up a disc dreams of hole in ones, the ace pool is a part of disc culture and smaller targets would have a heavy impact on the number of aces, which have already been impacted heavily for the majority of players by creating more and more longer "Championship Level" courses.
On the skill gap and how smaller targets would fit in, , todays top pros seem to be playing close to perfect rounds routinely on higher SSA rated courses, so
I can understand the frustration of those caliber players having so little margin for error but I would imagine many other sports in the end come down to that same small margin of tiny mistakes adding up over time. I don't think changing the target size at this stage of Disc Golf benefits the sport in that sense, good luck and bad tend to cancel each other out over long statistical periods and most other sports always have a small to large "Luck" factor that is impossible to eliminate in human activity.

For the "Average Joe" part of the skill gap, I think that part is fairly simple to quantify; The "Average Joe" sees the score the top pro cards on their home course and they can tell how large the gap is instantly, whether they're an 780 rated player or a 980 rated player. Whether or not that skill gap is large or small compared to other sports.. I think it's meaningless. That gap is just as large or small in any sport regardless of the prize when we're comparing ourselves to someone else. In fact, I know I'm probably much more likely to go beat my head against a wall for a few days seeing a top pro's score on a course I've played then I am seeing a PGA pro shoot a great round or pretty much anyone from another sport play well that I don't play. I can admire their brilliance in their sport but it doesn't hit me as hard intellectually. I think the "Average Joe" out there with more tournament holes played then DGCR posts knows exactly how hard it is to raise their ratings even 10-20 points once they plateau. And the other type of player, the one who doesn't play competitively, will never really care.
Lastly, for good or for bad, the size and shape of the Disc golf basket has become iconic to the sport, the outline alone is has become the standard of the sport and even if it were economically feasable it would be very hard to win over the hearts of most players. If they had looked tall and skinny 30 years ago it would probably be a whole different story.
The poster that commented about wanting consistancy had a point too, alot of players would instantly demand that their courses get new baskets to match the current "fad" and get in an uproar when hundreds of courses with no money could not do it.
Sorry if this was a little long, but thanks for reading. I do think the bullseyes are neat looking though.

[Lewis]

Originally Posted by smyith

Think about it though, a basket minimum for target zone size is essentially 19" x 24" (sans the chains). a disc is usually around 9". So the target zone is 2x the height and 3x the width of the disc being used. Thats extreme and unnecessary for a TRUE SKILL GAME. What other major sport, that doesn't have a goalie, out there has that huge of a target zone compared to the object going in?

The rim of a basketball goal is twice the diameter of a basketball -- even more for balls smaller than the standard men's size. The cup on a ball golf green is more than twice the diameter of a golf ball. American football and Aussie Rules football both have very large goal posts to kick the football through. The pockets on a pool table are more than two balls wide. Bowling alleys are several times wider than a bowling ball of any size.

[Casual Squishy]

Can't edit after 5 minutes and for some reason the site wouldn't let me preview, somehow like 5 paragraphs got merged, sorry all, that just looks horrible. It's also 4:30 am and my foot slipped on the teepad ...

[bluTDI09]

Originally Posted by PMcBeth

I don't agree with making the bullseye type basket exclusive in the long run but why not make a standard for the players who want tougher baskets and courses. Test it for the pros and see if it makes the game more exciting if it does go with it. If not no big deal we have the same game again and the forum is happy still.
What's everyone's thoughts about this?

I think that testing it out in a few tournaments for the pros is a great idea, especially if the results can be statistically compared with a previous pro tournament on the same course. We are all making assumptions about what impact it would have on the game and it would be nice to see it in real competition and get feedback from the players both playing and watching.