Reverse sandbagging

[burdphil]

Originally Posted by GLong

playing with better people is for practice and casual rounds, not for tourneys IMO. you need to be focused on your game, your head, and the course. and you also need to learn how to win, if you want to get better (skill-wise) AND be able to do it in a competitive environment. if you know that you have no chance of cashing, and consistently play in that division, i think it will dull your ability to deal with pressure once you actually get better.

I 100% agree with this. I have known several local guys who always played up in higher divisions because they "wanted to play better players", but then they would end up getting crushed every time, would get bummed out, and eventually stopped playing tournaments.

I don't buy into the playing better players makes you better idea. I personally think that the way you get better is by playing guys who are at your level and learning to deal with the pressure of being on a lead card. That second round is a LOT tougher when you have a potential win staring you in the face and three other guys breathing down your neck.

Once you dominate a reasonably good sized tournament playing at your rating level, or when your rating dictates it, then you move up. In my opinion, playing way over your head doesn't make you better, it just means you're afraid to deal with the pressure of going for a potential win.

[Cgkdisc]

All of the evidence indicates that players do not play better nor worse regardless whether they are playing with a group of players better or worse. However, playing with better players may help you improve if you practice what you might have learned from playing with them.

[Kingace]

Play with better players and you will learn new shots, mental game, and push you to beat them.
The ones that quit are pussies! It showed me that the pros were not that muh better.

I think if your just playing the same old talent... You will get stuck at that level.

[GT Chris]

Originally Posted by Aubin

I can answer that one.

my current rating is about 930... it's gone down from 948 the past few months because of stupid decisions (trying to play injured, mostly).

I took a few months off, healed up, practiced and I feel I'm personally playing at a 950-970 type of level now.

Last year, I played AM1 all year... probably 12 tourneys, about 7 PDGA. Sometimes I would suck, sometimes I would come soooooooo close to winning... lots of 2nds and 3rds but never that elusive first AM1 win.

First tourney of this year I had a decision to make, play AM1 again or just try out Pro open. I knew most of the pros playing, played with them all the time and I could hold my own but probably not win. I was so sick of winning plastic and played Pro Open. I wanted to see where i was headed, and how to get there, not try to be the best where I was comfortable being.

Out of 22 pro players (several sponsored by disc companies), I was tied for 5th after round one, and slipped to 12th after 3 terrible shots/decisions at the end of round 2. I would have won AM1.

IFFF (big if) you want to get better and even think you possibly have the time and skill to play Pro, then give it a shot. To answer your question, how do you keep coming back if you know you're not going to win, for me it's not about winning, it's about figuring out how to be the best I can possibly be. I know EXACTLY what I did wrong 2nd round and have worked on those mistakes, and I can't wait to try again.

I disagree that you would have won AM1. Think back to the last five or six holes you played. You were under no pressure to perform, finishing out of the cash in Open. But those holes play entirely different if you're sitting on a one or two stroke lead in AM1, with three other players on your card all gunning for you. There is a big difference between shooting low enough to win a division, and actually winning it.

That said, this post clearly exposes a weakness in your game that I also see in a lot of MA1 players who play up in Open. When players come so close to winning but never do, that tells me that they don't know how to finish a tournament. Knowing how to handle the nerves at the end of the last round when they need to protect a lead is important, and it is something you will never learn playing middle of the pack in Open.

[Kingace]

That's why you have the clutch gene

[DavidSauls]

Originally Posted by Kingace

Play with better players and you will learn new shots, mental game, and push you to beat them.
The ones that quit are pussies! It showed me that the pros were not that muh better.

I think if your just playing the same old talent... You will get stuck at that level.

And yet.....

We've seen how many players rise to over 1000-rating while still playing Advanced? If players didn't improve while playing with the same talent, there'd never be any cries of "bagger" because everyone would stay the same.

Meanwhile, I've "played up", one way or another, in 90% of the tournaments I've played over the past 15 years. I'm getting worse. I've seen plenty of people plateau and, despite the fact that they keep "playing up", they don't get any better.

If there's any effect, it's from playing casual rounds and practice rounds and local league play with better players. But tournaments? The evidence isn't there.

[burdphil]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

All of the evidence indicates that players do not play better nor worse regardless whether they are playing with a group of players better or worse. However, playing with better players may help you improve if you practice what you might have learned from playing with them.

What does the evidence say about players playing on the lead card with either the lead or a shot at the lead (within 3 strokes?) in the final round of a tournament? I'm not afraid to admit that I typically play much worse in those situations, usually because I go for shots that I really shouldn't...

[Kingace]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

And yet.....

We've seen how many players rise to over 1000-rating while still playing Advanced? If players didn't improve while playing with the same talent, there'd never be any cries of "bagger" because everyone would stay the same.

Meanwhile, I've "played up", one way or another, in 90% of the tournaments I've played over the past 15 years. I'm getting worse. I've seen plenty of people plateau and, despite the fact that they keep "playing up", they don't get any better.

If there's any effect, it's from playing casual rounds and practice rounds and local league play with better players. But tournaments? The evidence isn't there.

I guess you just suck at tourneys with better talent.

[Aubin]

Originally Posted by GT Chris

I disagree that you would have won AM1. Think back to the last five or six holes you played. You were under no pressure to perform, finishing out of the cash in Open. But those holes play entirely different if you're sitting on a one or two stroke lead in AM1, with three other players on your card all gunning for you. There is a big difference between shooting low enough to win a division, and actually winning it.

That said, this post clearly exposes a weakness in your game that I also see in a lot of MA1 players who play up in Open. When players come so close to winning but never do, that tells me that they don't know how to finish a tournament. Knowing how to handle the nerves at the end of the last round when they need to protect a lead is important, and it is something you will never learn playing middle of the pack in Open.

No offense, but you're completely wrong.


I've won a few Am2 tournys. I've played dozens of super competitive team matches in match play format (and won) and I have zero issues with pressure at the end of a tourney. I actually love the pressure and thrive on it. All of my close loses in AM1 came to players who should have (or actually used to) play Pro Open. Why not play Pro?

[CBoyle]

Or, you could just do what our club does. Open gets cash, all other divisions get disc credit towards club merchandise. Lower divisions get new plastic, gear, basket, etc...