Reverse sandbagging

[Scoot_er]

Division 1 = Open?

Why not just use Open instead of Pro?.....seems to be what they are doing by having Female Open and Open Masters.....Obviously Open doesn't mean open to everyone as the name would suggest.

[Casual Squishy]

In the above post I was not implying in any way that there's anything wrong with things being done exactly the same way they have all along, just tossing some internet musing of my own out there. I'm still a firm believer in "If it ain't broke don't fix it." And it really doesn't seem broken but change can be good too if it's good change done for a good reason, not just for the sake of change itself.

[Casual Squishy]

Originally Posted by Scoot_er

Division 1 = Open?

Why not just use Open instead of Pro?.....seems to be what they are doing by having Female Open and Open Masters.....Obviously Open doesn't mean open to everyone as the name would suggest.

It still pretty much is called just that by the older players (cant remember when the initials for the divisions came out but they were fairly straightforward until someone decided to change them around because they thought they had a bright idea.. another thing that didnt seem broken then but what's done is done), you signed up for the pdga as a "pro" but always referred to playing open. Sometimes I think that's what gets people all bent out of shape one way or the other. It's amazing how often people try to make something "Clearer" and just end up muddying the waters. Look at politics or the american legal or tax system. DG's been pretty change resistant since the basics are... well, basic.
On the other hand look at the controversy created over the rule changes for 2013 about calling discs illegal and pretty much needing a surveyor a lawyer and possibly a psychiatrist to explain just what the hell the new mando rule was supposed to "clear up" when there was nothing wrong with the wording of it before. On the positive side, sometimes common sense prevails and this year players can use their smart phones.. which was something that was as inevitable as casinos changing their policy on photography when phones started having cameras.

[Casual Squishy]

On a side note, before the ratings system people used to sign up for the PDGA pretty much based on what they played for their local leagues, you played open you joined as a pro, you played am, joined as am. The ratings system changed all that and has done wonders for players trying to figure out just who they should be playing against competitively. It may not be perfect and there will always be some overlap between divisions but it works out pretty darn well in practice. The whole 888 rule is another one of those "Bright ideas" that may look good on paper but also has its pros and cons, the idea of punishing a player for not returning for a round and making it harder on TDs (if he's having a bad day and trying to preserve a rating) is sound, but trying to enforce it in the field for a player that is deliberately trying to play worse is practically impossible now matter how complicated or simple the rule is. No one's ever going to say "You hit that tree on purpose!" (except your discs.)

[Casual Squishy]

I don't always post on the internet, but when I do I sound cold and humorless and tend to run on sentences.
Apologies, it's really not meant that way.

[Casual Squishy]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

And yet.....

We've seen how many players rise to over 1000-rating while still playing Advanced? If players didn't improve while playing with the same talent, there'd never be any cries of "bagger" because everyone would stay the same.

Meanwhile, I've "played up", one way or another, in 90% of the tournaments I've played over the past 15 years. I'm getting worse. I've seen plenty of people plateau and, despite the fact that they keep "playing up", they don't get any better.

If there's any effect, it's from playing casual rounds and practice rounds and local league play with better players. But tournaments? The evidence isn't there.

Hi David.
I picked up a few new tricks this year but they were actually from players at my own level, I was just paying attention (for a change). I think you can always learn from other players as long as they're at roughly the same skill on up. Bumping up in divisions should theoretically expose you to a wider variety of shots and techniques but I agree it really has no overwhelming effect on a players skill and shouldn't be anyones motivation for changing.
The old reasoning for playing mixed division first rounds came from the assumption that newer players would learn from older players because the older players had more experience and when disc golf was small and there was no youtube and internet it was sound reasoning.
I've come to appreciate that disc golf has evolved beyind that early level and the same division shuffle first round is the way to go.

Motivation for choosing divisions should be based solely on the cigar scale.


Motivations for choosing your division usually falls into one of these catagoreies for most players:

1.Smoke everyone like a cheap cigar. Every time.
2.Smoke everyone like a cheap cigar, If you're on fire.
3.Have a chance at cigar money if you're having a good day.
4.Have a chance at getting smoked like a cheap cigar, If you're having a bad day and deserve it.
5.Getting smoked like a cheap cigar. Every time. They like to donate and like the higher division name.

2,3, and 4 are what people hopefully aim for.
Hmm.. I don't even smoke cigars.. Why do I have these disc thingies...

Let's not forget 6. Have a good time, meet new people, and not ruin anyone elses good time by behaving in a sportsmanlike manner regardless of division.

5 days to Charlotte David, how's the weather been down there?
(you responded on my posts in the travel road trip thread awhile back)

[wake911]

Trophy only top 3, rest of entry fee goes to the club to help pay for the event. Lower am entry fees to promote more people coming out. Reduce/remove players packs aside from big tournies with cool stamped discs.

If every TD would do it, the turnout would still be good. It would reduce sandbagging(down) might increase open playing, but no open player will mind the shot at winning extra cash.

I am a big fan of end of year prizes for ams. Have a basket drawing for anyone who attends every event of the series. Have a basket for the winner in points at end of year, or merchant voucher for a well stocked vendor. Or entry into a bigger tourney (charlotte ams, Bg Ams?, GBO, memorial?,other big am events across the country.)

I still have trophies from my waterskiing days. Spend $40 for 2 short runs, maybe 10min on the water. No cash winning, no voucher, nothing but pride in knowing I kicked ass and a trophy proving I did it! I didn't care where it went(probably to gas up the boats, and maintenance on the equipment) it was all about trying to beat others in competition.

[mashnut]

Originally Posted by wake911

Trophy only top 3, rest of entry fee goes to the club to help pay for the event. Lower am entry fees to promote more people coming out. Reduce/remove players packs aside from big tournies with cool stamped discs.

The biggest issue with that from a TD perspective is the loss of revenue from buying discs wholesale and paying out with them at retail prices. That subsidizes a lot of tournament costs and helps move plastic. Bigger retailers often sell many more discs than just the ones they use for payout and players' packs. You wouldn't be able to lower the entry fee that much and still be able to cover costs without that revenue stream.

[DavidSauls]

Wake911, that's exactly how I wish disc golf had evolved. But I don't see how we'll wean disc golfers off the payouts at this point. Even if the PDGA mandated it, which they won't, I think events would go unsanctioned and continue the current formula.

(For Casual, the weather's been all over the place the last two weeks, but next week looks normal---pretty nice)

[DavidSauls]

Originally Posted by mashnut

The biggest issue with that from a TD perspective is the loss of revenue from buying discs wholesale and paying out with them at retail prices. That subsidizes a lot of tournament costs and helps move plastic. Bigger retailers often sell many more discs than just the ones they use for payout and players' packs. You wouldn't be able to lower the entry fee that much and still be able to cover costs without that revenue stream.

I think you could. $20-25 entry fees, no players pack, just a few trophies and standard expenses. TDs should clear about as much as they do now with the wholesale/retail margin.