Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Dave242]

John - in conjunction with mhulkman's question about adding intrigue to an otherwise featureless piece of land, might it make sense to do something creative like partially blocking off one side of the basket to make it more directional?

In my mind it adds the requirement of accurate placement to an otherwise bland hole. And.....accuracy is a real disc golf skill, so directional baskets might have their place in the scenario mhulkman describes.

I experimented with some tournaments I ran to add shields to one side of some baskets. I basically just hung a 1"x6" board down the side of the basket. You could see them clearly from the tee on the holes they were used so you knew where the more challenging landing area was.....and if you were good, you did not land in that area.

With only a 5.5" shield, there was no place that you were completely blocked, but you did have to either straddle putt or hyzer/anhyzer putt if landing to the side of the shield.

[mashnut]

You don't even have to block off the basket itself, you can just make putts and approaches from that side more difficult. One hole at Brent Baca in NM put railroad ties vertically around the green, they're dense on one side and sparse on the other. It creates the effect of tree "jail" off to one side of the hole but in the desert they don't have the luxury of actually using trees. Here's a picture, it doesn't quite capture it but it's the best I could find with a quick look:

[BogeyNoMore]

Originally Posted by Dave242

John - in conjunction with mhulkman's question about adding intrigue to an otherwise featureless piece of land, might it make sense to do something creative like partially blocking off one side of the basket to make it more directional?

In my mind it adds the requirement of accurate placement to an otherwise bland hole. And.....accuracy is a real disc golf skill, so directional baskets might have their place in the scenario mhulkman describes.

I experimented with some tournaments I ran to add shields to one side of some baskets. I basically just hung a 1"x6" board down the side of the basket. You could see them clearly from the tee on the holes they were used so you knew where the more challenging landing area was.....and if you were good, you did not land in that area.

With only a 5.5" shield, there was no place that you were completely blocked, but you did have to either straddle putt or hyzer/anhyzer putt if landing to the side of the shield.

^ I see what your after, and like the concept. I would applaud it if you could use something natural, like a bush, to achieve it. If it must be artificial, at least make it make it cute (if not somewhat gimmicky)... Don't take this personally, but to put a board on the basket just seems crass - I wouldn't like it. I admit at this point, I'm talking about style points, bcause artificially obstructing part of the basket is still artificial. But just as "It's not what you say, but how you say it," it's also Not what you do, but how you do it. Cute and unique touches can add something if well executed and not overdone

Just my $0.02 worth.

[mhulkman]

Thanks! You guys are awesome and I plan on using all of these suggestions in one way or another. It will definately be a unique course at the least. One great feature is the gradual and steep elevation change so Stans idea will certainly come into play. Plus there are some gorgeous views of the valley and surrounding mountains from the top of the hill so a nice 400-600ft “Top of the World” shot will be an absolute. I to like the idea of a wide open birdie hole with ace potential. There arent alot but enough bushes that stand 5-7ft tall for hiding or shielding one side of the basket "naturally" as Dave suggests. I also plan to use the severe slope for a few baskets to where you are punished for missing on the wrong side. I also like the idea of punishing aggresive shots such as a downhill par 3 with the basket 10ft in front of the wash. To long and your birdie put is from the wash and its 10-15ft bank or layup to short and get to aggresive with your birdie putt and now your par putt is from the wash. The wash can come into play on a few holes and I can mix it up with the basket on the left or right of it so you cant throw the same drive everytime. I was even thinking of maybe making some tall mounds of brush from some of the bushes and dirt we will be pulling out for trails and tee pads. I also mentioned the prevailing winds here and they can be a steady 10-20 mph from about 1pm-5pm in spring and summer but almost non existant in the morning and for most of fall/winter. So if you played 36 holes one day it would be two entirely different courses. I think Nov-April is when this course will see most action. Most people (myself included) will be playing one of the 6 courses around Lake Tahoe the rest of the yr. Thanks for the support guys, you helped take away the worries of this course being to boring.

[grodney]

Has somebody already come up with some joke about all the John's in here and what they're full of? Yes? Okay, good.

[optidiscic]

Originally Posted by grodney

Has somebody already come up with some joke about all the John's in here and what they're full of? Yes? Okay, good.

[New013]

I want some thoughts on how this hole should play out. I've got three possible tees I'm looking at you can see in the pic. Two would par 3's (Red and Purple) and the Blue would be a par 4.

Red: 450' total. 400' from tee to the far bank. 35' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Purple: 450' total. 395' from tee to the far bank. 38' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Blue: 626' total. 365' from the tee to water with a 40' drop. 265' from the near side of the water to the basket on the blue line. 15' rise from the water up to the basket.

Both basket placements are about 35' from the water.

I want this to be an epic water crossing and personally I can make it across but I'm not sure if it creates a really boring shot for those who couldn't. It's 400' or 395' from either red or purple to cross but there is a nice drop in elevation from the tee so that would help. If you do layup your throwing less than 260' from either tee and then throwing 180'+ on approach. Purple would be the hardest of those two because of the tree to the left of the flight path and the fact that any discs that fade out will likely splash.

Then you got the possible par 4 blue which takes away the dramatic water crossing off the tee and gives you still a big drive towards water and downhill which might make you splash or layup to short and create a riskier crossing on your second shot.

Thoughts, opinions, objections?

[Sadjo]

Originally Posted by New013

I want some thoughts on how this hole should play out. I've got three possible tees I'm looking at you can see in the pic. Two would par 3's (Red and Purple) and the Blue would be a par 4.

Red: 450' total. 400' from tee to the far bank. 35' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Purple: 450' total. 395' from tee to the far bank. 38' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Blue: 626' total. 365' from the tee to water with a 40' drop. 265' from the near side of the water to the basket on the blue line. 15' rise from the water up to the basket.

Both basket placements are about 35' from the water.

I want this to be an epic water crossing and personally I can make it across but I'm not sure if it creates a really boring shot for those who couldn't. It's 400' or 395' from either red or purple to cross but there is a nice drop in elevation from the tee so that would help. If you do layup your throwing less than 260' from either tee and then throwing 180'+ on approach. Purple would be the hardest of those two because of the tree to the left of the flight path and the fact that any discs that fade out will likely splash.

Then you got the possible par 4 blue which takes away the dramatic water crossing off the tee and gives you still a big drive towards water and downhill which might make you splash or layup to short and create a riskier crossing on your second shot.

Thoughts, opinions, objections?

Let me start with this disclaimer: I am not John Houck.

This would be a great hole to discuss in the Fair or Foul thread.

I like the options you've suggested. It looks like there is an option to not cross water at all and in each case players have the option of throwing short of the water then crossing.

[superberry]

Originally Posted by New013

I want some thoughts on how this hole should play out. I've got three possible tees I'm looking at you can see in the pic. Two would par 3's (Red and Purple) and the Blue would be a par 4.

Red: 450' total. 400' from tee to the far bank. 35' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Purple: 450' total. 395' from tee to the far bank. 38' drop in elevation from the tee to the water. 12' rise in elevation from the water up to the basket.

Blue: 626' total. 365' from the tee to water with a 40' drop. 265' from the near side of the water to the basket on the blue line. 15' rise from the water up to the basket.

Both basket placements are about 35' from the water.

I want this to be an epic water crossing and personally I can make it across but I'm not sure if it creates a really boring shot for those who couldn't. It's 400' or 395' from either red or purple to cross but there is a nice drop in elevation from the tee so that would help. If you do layup your throwing less than 260' from either tee and then throwing 180'+ on approach. Purple would be the hardest of those two because of the tree to the left of the flight path and the fact that any discs that fade out will likely splash.

Then you got the possible par 4 blue which takes away the dramatic water crossing off the tee and gives you still a big drive towards water and downhill which might make you splash or layup to short and create a riskier crossing on your second shot.

Thoughts, opinions, objections?

From the Blue tee, IMO this is not an epic hole to play, but maybe to look at. A 365' drive to the front edge of the water is a simple easy controlled midrange throw. Then another even easier midrange throw to clear the 265' water crossing for an easy 3 every time. It would be better to tempt a water throw off the drive with about 375' crossing, but then again the basket placement still calls for an easy upshot and putt for another three. If you backed the tee up 500-600' from the water, you may give a long range thrower to be over in two throws, but many blue players may take 3 throws to get from tee to the pin with the 265' water crossing at the end.

My thought process with water or other OB is that if used to make a par 4 hole, it needs to be placed somewhere that an average blue level player would land most of the time. Thus, really good players could clear the OB, while others lay up and play for par. Or in a simpler case like with a creek or river on a par 3 hole, if it were 375' to cross the water and the green was the other side, better players would drive across and play for deuce while others would either layup or simply not even come near the water with a full power drive, still need to clear it with an upshot, and have leave a decent putt

[johnrhouck]

Originally Posted by mhulkman

hey John, thanks again for fielding questions on here as time permits. Have you or anyone else on this board designed a course with NO trees? We are about to break ground on the 1st course in the Carson City/Carson Valley, Nv area and there is nothing but sage brush. The property sits on the foothills of the Sierras so there is a lot of elevation change along with a small canyon and dry wash. Some of the sage brush is 6ft tall so there are definately options for hiding baskets, placing them on slopes, and having them near the edges of the wash. We can probably utilize the canyon/wash for 6-9 holes for throwing over and around and making risk/reward shots but other than that we are finding a hard time making tee shots a challenge when there is no wind. The prevailing afternoon winds will definately make it a challenge. the plan is to have 12 par 3's and 6 par 4's. Any tips or advice from anyone would be highly appreciated!
Thanks, Mike

Mike, no trees is a tough situation. At least you have the canyon and wash to work with. 6' sage brush won't do you much good on the tees, but it can be a good putting hazard. I would think of it more in terms of obstacles for someone to put around if they don't make a god drive. Also as "sand traps" on par fours (not sure they'd quite qualify as PITTSBOROs).
Stan's idea sounds good, too.
And definitely make sure you mix up the wind direction -- that's going to be your last key element.