#31  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:04 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by garublador View Post
I'm not sure how that could happen. Where is the extra 2.3g of plastic coming from? Any changes in density from cooling would just make the disc have a larger or smaller volume. You can't produce mass just by cooling like that. The discs can absorb water and gain mass, but extra plastic doesn't just appear out of thin air.

My guess is that this won't be an issue for the OP because the TD probably won't have a certified scale. If anyone tried to call me on that and they did have a scale I'd ask them to prove that my disc is of the diameter they claim, too, which would require certified calipers. Who says my 176g Wizard doesn't actually have a larger diameter which would make it legal? The way the PDGA is claiming these rules should be enforced, every TD has to have the capability of confirming every single parameter of every single disc using certified instruments...but they still want to get paid to do the certification themselves. "PDGA Approved" only means that a certain number of discs have been produced and available to the public.
How is a disc's weight any different than other rules in the game that rely as much on player's honor as anything else to be enforced?

My point being that for the most part, players have to trust that the weights labeled on the discs are accurate. And if you are a player who weighs his own discs to know more exactly what they weigh, then you should have the honor and respect for the rules of the game to not use a disc that you've weighed and found to be heavier than the maximum allowable weight.

A player who weighs his Wizard, finds it tips the scale at 177g, and uses it in competition is of questionable ethics, IMO. But if he never says a word, never changes the marking on the disc (presuming it says something like 173 or 174g), NO ONE IS GOING TO BE THE WISER. The only way this player is going to "get caught" is if he makes a big deal about his 177g Wizard.

And if the player is going to brag to someone else about his over-weight disc, then he should take whatever consequences come with it should that person report him. If a player questions the use of the disc, the right thing to do is put it away and stop using it. If a TD penalizes or DQs the player for using it, so be it. I really don't think such a situation requires the TD to have a scale and calipers to determine if the disc is legal or not if the PLAYER ADMITS IT'S OVERWEIGHT.

Basically, it boils down to this. Don't weigh your discs yourself. And if you must, and you find one is illegal, don't use it. And if you insist on using it anyway, then for goodness sake, DON'T talk about it like it's some great point of pride...if for no other reason than you never know who's going to hear. Can you imagine if a baseball player corked his bat, and then bragged about it to the opposing first baseman after he got a hit with it? You think that ball player isn't going to get in trouble for it because the first baseman is "cool" with the idea? Of course not.
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  #32  
Old 02-19-2013, 10:53 AM
jdinteg jdinteg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
How is a disc's weight any different than other rules in the game that rely as much on player's honor as anything else to be enforced?

My point being that for the most part, players have to trust that the weights labeled on the discs are accurate. And if you are a player who weighs his own discs to know more exactly what they weigh, then you should have the honor and respect for the rules of the game to not use a disc that you've weighed and found to be heavier than the maximum allowable weight.

A player who weighs his Wizard, finds it tips the scale at 177g, and uses it in competition is of questionable ethics, IMO. But if he never says a word, never changes the marking on the disc (presuming it says something like 173 or 174g), NO ONE IS GOING TO BE THE WISER. The only way this player is going to "get caught" is if he makes a big deal about his 177g Wizard.

And if the player is going to brag to someone else about his over-weight disc, then he should take whatever consequences come with it should that person report him. If a player questions the use of the disc, the right thing to do is put it away and stop using it. If a TD penalizes or DQs the player for using it, so be it. I really don't think such a situation requires the TD to have a scale and calipers to determine if the disc is legal or not if the PLAYER ADMITS IT'S OVERWEIGHT.

Basically, it boils down to this. Don't weigh your discs yourself. And if you must, and you find one is illegal, don't use it. And if you insist on using it anyway, then for goodness sake, DON'T talk about it like it's some great point of pride...if for no other reason than you never know who's going to hear. Can you imagine if a baseball player corked his bat, and then bragged about it to the opposing first baseman after he got a hit with it? You think that ball player isn't going to get in trouble for it because the first baseman is "cool" with the idea? Of course not.

Agreed,
if a player is bragging about an overweight disc in a tournament he knowingly is breaking the rules, and deserves the outcome. But if they bought a max allowable weight disc and the factory scale says 175, my scale says 174, and a TD's scale says 176 who is right? Most scales are easily within this tolerance, and a digital scale that rounds to the nearest gram might only be off by .1 gram (74.5 vs 74.4) but it rounds up to 175 instead of down to 174. In the case of a Wizard at 174.3 vs 174.5 a .2 gram discrepancy between scales could make the disc illegal.

I do find this comical, I don't recall ever seeing a TD with a scale at a tournament. In fact I only know of 1 disc golf store in my area out of 6 different shops who actually has a scale. Legal or not, it certainly cannot be enforced without a big change. I doubt the PDGA would push this issue too hard for fear of TD's just stopping sanctioning the small tournaments with the PDGA. But I would love to be a fly on the wall when this dispute arrived at a tournament and we where talking about a gram difference.
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  #33  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:16 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
How is a disc's weight any different than other rules in the game that rely as much on player's honor as anything else to be enforced?

My point being that for the most part, players have to trust that the weights labeled on the discs are accurate. And if you are a player who weighs his own discs to know more exactly what they weigh, then you should have the honor and respect for the rules of the game to not use a disc that you've weighed and found to be heavier than the maximum allowable weight.

A player who weighs his Wizard, finds it tips the scale at 177g, and uses it in competition is of questionable ethics, IMO. But if he never says a word, never changes the marking on the disc (presuming it says something like 173 or 174g), NO ONE IS GOING TO BE THE WISER. The only way this player is going to "get caught" is if he makes a big deal about his 177g Wizard.

And if the player is going to brag to someone else about his over-weight disc, then he should take whatever consequences come with it should that person report him. If a player questions the use of the disc, the right thing to do is put it away and stop using it. If a TD penalizes or DQs the player for using it, so be it. I really don't think such a situation requires the TD to have a scale and calipers to determine if the disc is legal or not if the PLAYER ADMITS IT'S OVERWEIGHT.

Basically, it boils down to this. Don't weigh your discs yourself. And if you must, and you find one is illegal, don't use it. And if you insist on using it anyway, then for goodness sake, DON'T talk about it like it's some great point of pride...if for no other reason than you never know who's going to hear.
The problem with that is that now you're saying that it's OK to break the rules as long as you don't either know or admit that you're breaking the rules. As long as I don't read the rule book, it's OK for me to break whatever rule I want because ignorance is now an acceptable defense. That's a terrible way to enforce rules.

Again, people are just using weight and flex as the only examples. The implication is that we are now responsible to verify that every single aspect of all of our discs and all of our competitors discs meet the PDGA guidelines. If we have to do that then why even have an approval process? You either trust the approval process or you don't. A disc can't be partially approved, it's either approved or not. If unapproved discs are being stamped as "Approved" that's up to the party that approves discs to police. It's a set of rules for manufacturers of discs, not a set of rules for players.

What if I buy a disc from the TD before the event, get called on it being over weight and the TD finds it illegal. According to the logic some, including the PDGA, are using, the TD could disqualify me for using a disc he sold me on site. Is that how well thought out rules should work?

Quote:
Can you imagine if a baseball player corked his bat, and then bragged about it to the opposing first baseman after he got a hit with it? You think that ball player isn't going to get in trouble for it because the first baseman is "cool" with the idea? Of course not.
That's a post manufacturing modification. That's totally different than an out of spec piece of equipment coming directly from the manufacturer.
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  #34  
Old 02-19-2013, 11:30 AM
jdinteg jdinteg is offline
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Corking a bat is like putting lead tape on the inner rim of a disc to get 200 grams. Or putting your mid in an oven and then modifying the disc to change its flight plate or rim edge. That might be a game changer, and certainly would be cheating.
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  #35  
Old 02-19-2013, 05:04 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by discreid View Post
If it really bothers you that someone is using a heavy disc, I would talk to them first. Let them know they're carrying an illegal disc and that you plan on calling them on it if they use it.

Personally, I don't care if someone is using a disc that's a few grams overweight. I don't think they're gaining any competitive advantage and the ensuing drama would just make me lose focus on my own play.
[QUOTE=garublador;1856284]The problem with that is that now you're saying that it's OK to break the rules as long as you don't either know or admit that you're breaking the rules....

Again, people are just using weight and flex as the only examples.



QUOTE]

^^^

This. Talk to the players before you are ever in a tournament situation. "I've heard you say that Wiz is 180g, which would make it illegal. Please be sure to have legal Wizards come tourney time. I'd hate to have to call you on it, but I guess I'd be forced to if I see that same disc in a tournament."
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  #36  
Old 02-19-2013, 05:38 PM
garublador garublador is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
This. Talk to the players before you are ever in a tournament situation. "I've heard you say that Wiz is 180g, which would make it illegal. Please be sure to have legal Wizards come tourney time. I'd hate to have to call you on it, but I guess I'd be forced to if I see that same disc in a tournament."
As others have pointed out it probably doesn't matter because there's little chance the TD will have a certified scale. Calling someone on it won't do any good if no one can prove how much the disc weighs.
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  #37  
Old 02-19-2013, 06:11 PM
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tbird888 tbird888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
"I've heard you say that Wiz is 180g, which would make it illegal. Please be sure to have legal Wizards come tourney time. I'd hate to have to call you on it, but I guess I'd be forced to if I see that same disc in a tournament."
And everyone always tells the truth? After all these threads about this, I might just start mentioning false weights to my discs to see if I can't get someone to tattle on me.
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  #38  
Old 02-19-2013, 09:19 PM
bsu12345 bsu12345 is offline
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you can not pick up a wizard and tell it is over weight. haha yea I bet you can tell a if difference in one to 2 grams get real
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  #39  
Old 02-19-2013, 09:22 PM
bsu12345 bsu12345 is offline
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he better bring weights to calibrate the scales and they best be scientific for precision and accuracy, this is a battle TDs should not responsible for, they have enough going on
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  #40  
Old 02-20-2013, 09:16 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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Originally Posted by bsu12345 View Post
he better bring weights to calibrate the scales and they best be scientific for precision and accuracy, this is a battle TDs should not responsible for, they have enough going on
Don't forget that they need certified calipers to verify the diameter as well. The max weight is a function of the diameter, so you have to know the maximum potential diameter (there is no tolerance listed so you'll have to add the tolerance of the calipers to what you measure) to know the max possible weight. Remember to take the tolerance of the scale into account because there is no tolerance on the max weight of the disc.
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