#241  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:28 AM
Future_Primitive's Avatar
Future_Primitive Future_Primitive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteezeOG View Post
Yes. You're a minor leaguer not good enough or too scared to play open and you're pissed about your pretend payouts. Don't come to worlds. Don't go anywhere you don't think your amazing skills are compensated for. Simple as that.
More false allegations, why so many personal attacks when someone calls out your obvious logic fallacy? When you take a break from screaming and crying, kindly quote me where I am "pissed" about pretend payouts. Go ahead, I am waiting...



Oh nothing, could have told you that as I am not pissed. No intentions of going to Worlds when I have been playing for 2 whole years. Of course you knew that already, since you know everything about me from one post.

Continue to scream, cry and yell your way about amateurs not getting paid, despite the fact there isnt a single amateur in the PDGA. Why let logic stop you now, hasnt yet.
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  #242  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:56 AM
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Dynamic Discs Dynamic Discs is offline
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I have read this thread and think that it is time to for a response from Dynamic Discs. There is a lot to cover and I will try to do my best to answer as many topics as possible that have been mentioned on this thread.

Dynamic Discs has been in the business of disc golf for eight years now and running events for almost as long. As a company, we host over 30+ PDGA events a year and sponsor hundreds of other events. Our two RVís travel the country and we see and experience more disc golfers in a year than anyone else in the world. Our number one goal at every event is for the player to have the best experience possible. We feel like with what resources, funding, and time that we have available, we do a great job at providing a very high level of service.

We have experimented with several different models for our tournaments but as a whole, they are all run almost identical. Amateur players almost always receive a $15 merchandise voucher as their player pack so that they can pick out whatever they want. The recreational division was converted to trophy only for the 2012 season and remains that way for 2013. These recreational players usually pay around $35 and receive a players package worth well over that and often compete for additional prizes. The size of our recreational division did decline in size, but our intermediate field increased in size. I can promise you that we did not discourage the true recreational player from coming out to our events! We do believe that we improved the recreational player tournament experience and hopefully help make sure that these players come back to play more tournaments.

Jennifer mentioned that our tournaments are having a difficult time with filling up now due to this decision. Some of our Texas events were a few players short of filling last year but I disagree 100% with this statement or assumption. The decision to make recreational trophy only was because we had players bagging in intermediate only to win nearly the same amount in prizes as someone in the intermediate division would win due to the field sizes of around 50-60 players with nearly half of these who should have been playing intermediate. We felt the true meaning of a recreational player was to enjoy your experience and compete against players of your skill level instead of intermediate players who were not renewing PDGA memberships so that they could bag and win more prizes.

We believe that the decline in the attendance of the events has been largely due to the number of events doubling in Texas in 2012. This gave players more options and diluted the number of players. For the 2013 season, all four of our Texas PDGA events have either filled in advance or had over 180 players and we are still doing recreational as trophy/player pack only.

Our payouts are some of the best in the business and we have almost zero sponsorship dollars to put towards the events except for the Innova Champion Discs CFR fundraising program and a few minor sponsors here and there. We hosted a very successful Glass Blown Open in 2012 that featured 432 players with a hybrid of trophy only. We handed players a player pack worth approximately $175, sent them off to play three rounds of golf, and then only paid out a small percentage of the field. Most players seemed to appreciate this model. We are doing the same this year and those that place at the top will be rewarded again. This is basically the same model that we put in front of the PDGA board for our 2013 Amateur World Championships bid proposal. The bid was approved and Dynamic Discs and Emporia, Kansas were awarded the Championships with expectations that the amateur tournament model was in need of some adjustments. The PDGA was supportive and encouraging and felt like if this was the year for change, then having Dynamic Discs behind it would hopefully be the best way to bring this to the players.

We can only host a little over 500 players with five courses to use. Steezo mentioned that the Emporia Middle School course should have been looked at and improved on and utilized. This was our full intentions but the PDGA did not feel like the course, even with the proposed improvements, was good enough for a World Championships. The course will still be getting the changes, but at this point it is not scheduled to be used for Worlds.

What should players expect of the 2013 Amateur World Championships? Our goal is always to have players enjoy their experience from the time that they show up until the time that they leave. You will check in at the Granada Theatre which is a block away from the Dynamic Discs shop and pick up your $200+ value players package. From there, you will likely get practiced up on the courses and enjoy the beautiful scenery of the two ball golf facilities that are going to be used for the event. Both courses will allow you to rent a golf cart for your practice rounds so enjoy that experience that few events have the ability to offer. The players party, dinner, FlyMart, poker night, Dynamic Discs shop, clinics, and other activities will keep you busy all week and with everything in Emporia being as little as a ten minute drive, you should never expect travel time to be anything to worry about. At the end of the event, there will be the finals and awards given out to the top finishers. These players will receive a trophy basket, or mini trophy basket, along with additional payout that can be used at the event or at the ease of your computer when back home through our online store that stocks just about everything disc golf.

If you are looking to win or place high in your respective division and make a personal gain by receiving additional payout, you still will! We just donít see the need to pay out 250 of 500 amateur players. This creates mass chaos in most instances while all 250 players are trying to rush and get their payout and get on the road at the same time. We want to give you the best experience up front and for the entire time that you are in Emporia and think that we can do this without paying out half of the field. With many events doing this across the country, it seems to be the model that will be seen in more and more events. If you canít find the competitive nature in playing your best, improving your game, and competing against the top amateurs only to be upset to not receive payout for finishing halfway down in your division, then I recommend not coming to the Amateur World Championships and letting someone else fill your spot who will enjoy the tournament and the experience. We donít feel like there will be any shortage of players wanting to compete and want all 500+ players to come and have the best tournament experience that they will ever have at a disc golf event! We look forward to seeing you in Emporia and promise to put on the best show possible!

Jeremy Rusco
Dynamic Discs
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  #243  
Old 03-04-2013, 11:59 AM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discdoh View Post
Quick question...

Why does everyone seem to indicate that AMs only get underweight/crappy mold/undesirable plastic as their prize out?

In my area, the AMs get vouchers that they can use on whatever they want from the club inventory. Our inventory is probably close to $15,000+ strong at all times. Is this not the norm? There are other ways for clubs to get rid of their stagnant stock other than forcing it down the winner's throats...
Back when your Club was my Club and we were 150 guys who all learned to play at White Birch, we paid out in crappy underweight Sharks and Panthers. After we did that for a while we were able to build more courses, expand the membership, built up some funds and some inventory, and now YOU get to give vouchers. There was a lot of sweat and struggle from years ago by guys like me that got you to that point. Don't forget that.

Now that I'm in Rolla, I'm back to 20 guys, no money, limited options. If RCF wants to hook us up with a deal to help us access the RCF merch stock so we can run better events, I'm all ears. If not, just telling me you are doing it better than me isn't doing anything. I'm well aware that I can't do it as good as you can.
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  #244  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:11 PM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Oh, I've done essays on our use of "Professional" and "Amateur", myself. And essays as to how I wish our structure had evolved---or how it will be when I'm acclaimed Absolute Dictator. I'm certainly not entitled to any "Holier than Thou" status.

But these will not change the current structure, and specifically the Am-Payout system.

I'm reminded of a line to the effect of, "Everyone knows what's wrong with the country, and what needs to be done to straighten it out. And it never involves them doing anything different from what they're doing right now."
Now I really wish we'd made time to come visit your course when we went to charlotte last month.. woulda been fun. That last paragraph made my day.. it's so true. And why we're so screwed.
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  #245  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:48 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
This is also the norm around here. It's been about 15 years since I was handed a stack of specific discs, instead of a voucher.
Is that Innova product mainly?

The reason I ask is that you are in driving distance to Innova East and they allow/ed TDs/Clubs to sign out "boats" of assorted products for tournaments and then return them after the event and pay for all products that were not returned. This is EXTREMELY cool....and something that most of the country is not able to do.

Local shops can do something similar....but there is a drawback for the local clubs in that much less of the money raised in sales goes back to support the work of the local club. I think it was Threeputt who wrote about his experience with this in a recent post.
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  #246  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:00 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Is that Innova product mainly?

The reason I ask is that you are in driving distance to Innova East and they allow/ed TDs/Clubs to sign out "boats" of assorted products for tournaments and then return them after the event and pay for all products that were not returned. This is EXTREMELY cool....and something that most of the country is not able to do.

Local shops can do something similar....but there is a drawback for the local clubs in that much less of the money raised in sales goes back to support the work of the local club. I think it was Threeputt who wrote about his experience with this in a recent post.
Yes, in part. There are tournaments were the TD does just what you describe. There are also a growing number of retail stores and vendors around the area who run tournaments, or vend tournaments that clubs are running. But they also pay out in vouchers, redeemable from their entire stock. (I'd say more than half the events also give a voucher for a players pack).
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  #247  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:15 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Yes, in part. There are tournaments were the TD does just what you describe. There are also a growing number of retail stores and vendors around the area who run tournaments, or vend tournaments that clubs are running. But they also pay out in vouchers, redeemable from their entire stock. (I'd say more than half the events also give a voucher for a players pack).
.....I'l agree that it is a great benefit to be in driving distance of Innova and be able to handle merch on consignment, so to speak.

I can't deny that there aren't tournaments where Ams are paid in unsellable stock. It's certainly possible. But the assertions that this is the force behind the Am payout system simply isn't true; it may be somewhere, but certainly not everywhere.
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  #248  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:24 PM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamic Discs View Post
I have read this thread and think that it is time to for a response from Dynamic Discs. There is a lot to cover and I will try to do my best to answer as many topics as possible that have been mentioned on this thread.

Dynamic Discs has been in the business of disc golf for eight years now and running events for almost as long. As a company, we host over 30+ PDGA events a year and sponsor hundreds of other events. Our two RVís travel the country and we see and experience more disc golfers in a year than anyone else in the world. Our number one goal at every event is for the player to have the best experience possible. We feel like with what resources, funding, and time that we have available, we do a great job at providing a very high level of service.

We have experimented with several different models for our tournaments but as a whole, they are all run almost identical. Amateur players almost always receive a $15 merchandise voucher as their player pack so that they can pick out whatever they want. The recreational division was converted to trophy only for the 2012 season and remains that way for 2013. These recreational players usually pay around $35 and receive a players package worth well over that and often compete for additional prizes. The size of our recreational division did decline in size, but our intermediate field increased in size. I can promise you that we did not discourage the true recreational player from coming out to our events! We do believe that we improved the recreational player tournament experience and hopefully help make sure that these players come back to play more tournaments.

Jennifer mentioned that our tournaments are having a difficult time with filling up now due to this decision. Some of our Texas events were a few players short of filling last year but I disagree 100% with this statement or assumption. The decision to make recreational trophy only was because we had players bagging in intermediate only to win nearly the same amount in prizes as someone in the intermediate division would win due to the field sizes of around 50-60 players with nearly half of these who should have been playing intermediate. We felt the true meaning of a recreational player was to enjoy your experience and compete against players of your skill level instead of intermediate players who were not renewing PDGA memberships so that they could bag and win more prizes.

We believe that the decline in the attendance of the events has been largely due to the number of events doubling in Texas in 2012. This gave players more options and diluted the number of players. For the 2013 season, all four of our Texas PDGA events have either filled in advance or had over 180 players and we are still doing recreational as trophy/player pack only.

Our payouts are some of the best in the business and we have almost zero sponsorship dollars to put towards the events except for the Innova Champion Discs CFR fundraising program and a few minor sponsors here and there. We hosted a very successful Glass Blown Open in 2012 that featured 432 players with a hybrid of trophy only. We handed players a player pack worth approximately $175, sent them off to play three rounds of golf, and then only paid out a small percentage of the field. Most players seemed to appreciate this model. We are doing the same this year and those that place at the top will be rewarded again. This is basically the same model that we put in front of the PDGA board for our 2013 Amateur World Championships bid proposal. The bid was approved and Dynamic Discs and Emporia, Kansas were awarded the Championships with expectations that the amateur tournament model was in need of some adjustments. The PDGA was supportive and encouraging and felt like if this was the year for change, then having Dynamic Discs behind it would hopefully be the best way to bring this to the players.

We can only host a little over 500 players with five courses to use. Steezo mentioned that the Emporia Middle School course should have been looked at and improved on and utilized. This was our full intentions but the PDGA did not feel like the course, even with the proposed improvements, was good enough for a World Championships. The course will still be getting the changes, but at this point it is not scheduled to be used for Worlds.

What should players expect of the 2013 Amateur World Championships? Our goal is always to have players enjoy their experience from the time that they show up until the time that they leave. You will check in at the Granada Theatre which is a block away from the Dynamic Discs shop and pick up your $200+ value players package. From there, you will likely get practiced up on the courses and enjoy the beautiful scenery of the two ball golf facilities that are going to be used for the event. Both courses will allow you to rent a golf cart for your practice rounds so enjoy that experience that few events have the ability to offer. The players party, dinner, FlyMart, poker night, Dynamic Discs shop, clinics, and other activities will keep you busy all week and with everything in Emporia being as little as a ten minute drive, you should never expect travel time to be anything to worry about. At the end of the event, there will be the finals and awards given out to the top finishers. These players will receive a trophy basket, or mini trophy basket, along with additional payout that can be used at the event or at the ease of your computer when back home through our online store that stocks just about everything disc golf.

If you are looking to win or place high in your respective division and make a personal gain by receiving additional payout, you still will! We just donít see the need to pay out 250 of 500 amateur players. This creates mass chaos in most instances while all 250 players are trying to rush and get their payout and get on the road at the same time. We want to give you the best experience up front and for the entire time that you are in Emporia and think that we can do this without paying out half of the field. With many events doing this across the country, it seems to be the model that will be seen in more and more events. If you canít find the competitive nature in playing your best, improving your game, and competing against the top amateurs only to be upset to not receive payout for finishing halfway down in your division, then I recommend not coming to the Amateur World Championships and letting someone else fill your spot who will enjoy the tournament and the experience. We donít feel like there will be any shortage of players wanting to compete and want all 500+ players to come and have the best tournament experience that they will ever have at a disc golf event! We look forward to seeing you in Emporia and promise to put on the best show possible!

Jeremy Rusco
Dynamic Discs
^^ Now there's an opinion that matters..

I predict it'll be less then 15 minutes before steezo comes on and tells you you're doing it wrong.


Any plans to expand more into the northeast jeremy if you're still online?
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  #249  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:28 PM
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UCF_Knight UCF_Knight is online now
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So did DD just shut everyone up? I don't see how anyone can really be opposed to what they are planning for Am worlds. I really don't enjoy discs in players packages, other than a custom stamp to hang in my office, but if you are letting people pick out a disc and I'm sure still giving them a wall hanger who can complain?

Full Disclosure: I am an 892 rated AM2 player that has been playing for roughly a year. I would love to move up and play Open when I get better. I enjoy playing tournaments where I am playing for more than a trophy, especially if I have some choice in what I win; i.e. a voucher. I think half of this thread has been argument about peoples point of view so I'm getting that out of the way.

I can't understand the side of this argument that wants to get rid of all payouts below Open. I feel for Three Putt and can see how this makes things difficult for him but I don't think a sweeping ban on AM payouts is the fix. The south FL dg scene is very small but, we have (which is a newer thing) a club or two in each county that runs: leagues, fundraiser tournys, and a big annual tourny or two. The clubs do amazing work with money from leagues and fundraisers to improve existing courses and install new courses; the number of courses in the Tri-County area will soon be 2x what it was a year or two ago. Of course at leagues and fundraisers there are not huge payouts and minimal to non-existent player packs and this is where the money comes from to support the club and the courses. If Three Putt does not have a dg population willing to attend these events then it would seem there is also no population to benefit from the course improvements he wishes to make.

What I really don't understand is how eliminating AM payouts and encouraging side bets benefits anyone. I think the system of AM taking swag, plastic or the best option of all vouchers to local dg shops or other businesses is the best case scenario for all parties involved.

If you make all AM trophy only you:
-Lose the option to run the "AM scam" which I don't see as a scam as much as I see it as a way for ams to pay their dues to the sport and the people who have been playing longer or practicing harder
-Lose the ability to force AMs to support DG businesses by giving them plastic or vouchers
-Run the risk of people being less interested in playing these events
-Run the risk of people running more and more unsanctioned events which hurts the PDGA

I can totally understand DD for not paying out to 40% of the population for logistics reasons and would still love to have the opportunity to play in AM worlds. I also think that giving amazing prizes to the top few will drive the field to play harder.

So my question before DD posted was: How does keeping AM payouts as part of the tourny structure, not a side pot, hurt anyone?

My question after seeing the DD post is: Seeing as it is not a true trophy only tournament, do you people opposed to AM payouts have a problem with what they have planned for AM Worlds?
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  #250  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:28 PM
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zenbot zenbot is offline
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Let's keep it civil in here. It's too early on a Monday to get so many reported posts.
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