#11  
Old 03-22-2013, 06:34 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Squishy View Post
but challenging strangers for it's own sake just doesn't happen much.
this is actually quite common at my local course. its very easy to hustle someone. Sometimes you have to be willing to take them on 2 vs 1, or even 3 vs 1. not hard to bait them either, especially considering with 3 discs you can light the course up pretty good.
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  #12  
Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 PM
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bradharris bradharris is online now
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I read very little of this thread. The OP was too much, and the responses by the OP were also very wordy. Maybe I'll go back and read another time. But I did read the PDGA article, and I support what they are doing.

I've been saying it for a long time, but the divisional structure the PDGA uses is trash. It is intimidating and it actually pushes a lot of players away.

The debate has been raging locally during the offseason about local "pros" who could actually make more money playing am 1 because the field sizes and subsequent payouts (which often are cash in non-sanctioned events) are bigger.

The crux of the problem is that there is only one difference between Am1 and Pro Open: the prizes. Am 1 is an open division. You can play Am 1 with any rating, at any age, and in either gender. The only theoretical difference is that pro open plays for cash while am 1 plays for trophies.

By introducing payouts to amateur divisons, the lines between am 1 and pro open continue to blur. The two should be combined. Am and Pro should be statuses, not divisions. Majors and NTs should have completely separate Am and Pro events. Smaller local tournies should combine Am 1 and Pro Open as one divison simply called "Open." If you want to play for money, set up a side pot.
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2013, 06:49 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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I think it is interesting that it is a disc vendor (as opposed to a club) who is taking the lead in making this happen on the largest stage.

It has got to be bit of a pain for vendors when they show up to run tournaments to have all the tournament players overloaded with discs from their winnings at other tournaments. Once the culture changes to where Am's are only getting trophies....then bringing the merch wagon to tournaments becomes much more profitable.

On the flip side, if the culture changes and clubs are not able to use tournaments disc sales as a fundraising source (for courses and insurance)....that will not be a good thing for the growth and maintenance of courses.
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  #14  
Old 03-22-2013, 06:58 PM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradharris View Post
I read very little of this thread. The OP was too much, and the responses by the OP were also very wordy. Maybe I'll go back and read another time. But I did read the PDGA article, and I support what they are doing.

I've been saying it for a long time, but the divisional structure the PDGA uses is trash. It is intimidating and it actually pushes a lot of players away.

The debate has been raging locally during the offseason about local "pros" who could actually make more money playing am 1 because the field sizes and subsequent payouts (which often are cash in non-sanctioned events) are bigger.

The crux of the problem is that there is only one difference between Am1 and Pro Open: the prizes. Am 1 is an open division. You can play Am 1 with any rating, at any age, and in either gender. The only theoretical difference is that pro open plays for cash while am 1 plays for trophies.

By introducing payouts to amateur divisons, the lines between am 1 and pro open continue to blur. The two should be combined. Am and Pro should be statuses, not divisions. Majors and NTs should have completely separate Am and Pro events. Smaller local tournies should combine Am 1 and Pro Open as one divison simply called "Open." If you want to play for money, set up a side pot.
Sorry man, if my writing style were any worse I'd have to become a high school english teacher. The first post was actually the short version. I'm trying to get better, but I don't write very often
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2013, 07:27 PM
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AndyJB AndyJB is offline
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I get what they are doing, but as a crappy player who also enjoys playing competitvley and enjoying new courses, I'm also a bit disheartned by it. I like winning "funny money" to get sweet new discs (even if I've only done it once) and having that option taken away kind of sucks.

However, and I debated internally over this for quite awhile, it COULD be good for the growth of the sport if, and only if, it lowers entry fees for events. For example, I am playing the 303 Open this weekend in Denver, in the Rec Diviksion. It was originally going to be trophy only (which clearly did not stop me from entering) but I believe they decided to do the standard 33% payout as there are 10 people in Rec and no one entered Novice. The players pack was more than enough for me to pay the 47 dollars for the 2-day tourney (one day of which is on a normally private course) whether I won gift certificates or not. They did something very cool with the Players Packs, in which everyone got a mini, a towel, a sharpie, some stickers and a DGA Breaker. Pretty standard (except for the sweet First Flight Breaker!) But they also gave you 15 dollars to spend on your own 303 Merch which you picked out before the event and then picked up with your players pack. Myself, and others, even spent more than the 15 on merch. For example, I got a Bamboo 303 Flexfit hat (18 bucks) and a quik-dry towel (3 bucks) so I spent an extra 6.

I think that's a pretty good value, to be honest, but it is a bit on the steep end for a trophy only event. (Which it isn't) So my point is, would a smaller sponsor or TD be able to support that kind of killer package? If not, would they be willing to radically drop the entry fee? If it were trophy only for Novice, Rec and Intermediate, would a TD be willing to gamble and have a 10, 15 and 20 dollar entry fee, respectfully, in the hope that more players would enter and to spread the word of disc golf? It is an interesting quandry.

This, of course, isn't a perfect example as the 303 Open is split into 2 distinct events: Amatuer this weekend and Pro next weekend. But maybe THAT is the "wave of the future": more distinct events, rather than the Pro/Ams which happen as almost the standard now. I think it would certainly allow for more Amatuer tournaments (and potentially better players packs) if they went with all trophy events for Ams. But...a big but....would that lead to more participants?

I hope the PDGA Board heavily debated these sorts of questions before casting their vote. Because, really, the only opposing opinion boils down to the one oft-used phrase: if it ain't broke, why fix it?
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2013, 07:36 PM
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Smigles Smigles is online now
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So the entire debate is just about what prices the ams get in the end ? WHO CARES ??

The fact that the entire divisions system is flawed per se and that sandbagging is always happening and that nobody cares about the ratings limitations on divisions and that it is all one big improvised pile of stench... let's not talk about that. Let's talk about if we should hand out discs or trophies in the end.

Cause that is what... like... realy matters right?
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2013, 07:52 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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My two cents....

Am should be trophy only.

Pro should be sliding scale entry fee based on rating. Except for NTs.
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  #18  
Old 03-22-2013, 08:02 PM
gripitandripit gripitandripit is offline
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As an am - trophy only is fine with me as long as entry fees reflect that. No money should ever be taken from am entries to pay pro purses. If the pro purse cannot sustain itself then better sponsorships are needed, which means TV, which probably won't ever happen. At most tournaments you can't even get players who have finished their rounds to watch the pros play a final 9.
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  #19  
Old 03-22-2013, 08:02 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradharris View Post
I read very little of this thread. The OP was too much, and the responses by the OP were also very wordy. Maybe I'll go back and read another time. But I did read the PDGA article, and I support what they are doing.

I've been saying it for a long time, but the divisional structure the PDGA uses is trash. It is intimidating and it actually pushes a lot of players away.

The debate has been raging locally during the offseason about local "pros" who could actually make more money playing am 1 because the field sizes and subsequent payouts (which often are cash in non-sanctioned events) are bigger.

The crux of the problem is that there is only one difference between Am1 and Pro Open: the prizes. Am 1 is an open division. You can play Am 1 with any rating, at any age, and in either gender. The only theoretical difference is that pro open plays for cash while am 1 plays for trophies.

By introducing payouts to amateur divisons, the lines between am 1 and pro open continue to blur. The two should be combined. Am and Pro should be statuses, not divisions. Majors and NTs should have completely separate Am and Pro events. Smaller local tournies should combine Am 1 and Pro Open as one divison simply called "Open." If you want to play for money, set up a side pot.
good post
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  #20  
Old 03-22-2013, 08:16 PM
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AndyJB AndyJB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
So the entire debate is just about what prices the ams get in the end ? WHO CARES ??
I, as an amatuer player, care. I don't mind kicking some of my entry fee to a pro purse (isn't that what ace pools are for LOL?) But if you are asking me to pay 50 bucks or more for a shot at only a trophy, and the players package is scrappy or sub-par, just so that the Pros can get another 5 bucks or whatever per Am to their purse, then that's where the problem comes in.

Like I said, though, the simple solution is to just stop running Pro/Am events. That way you could beef up the amount of Amatuer events, drawing more people to the sport, and also giving the Pro events a more big-time feel.

Because, whatever people may think, Am fees do NOT pay the Pros purse...or not much of it anyway. Having a clear dichotomy between Professional and Amatuer events MAY bring more big money sponsorships to the tournament scene for Pros.
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