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  #11  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:53 PM
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Pwingles Pwingles is offline
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Toro,
Re: plane vs release angle

You can bring the disc thru on one plane, and release it on another. Unintentional wristroll is prolly the easiest example. But there are ways to use it positively also.
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  #12  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:53 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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It causes plenty of wobble if you watch the high speed videos. Again, it does change the plane of the disc, but it changes it with respect to your pull plane. Throwing a disc cleanly with 10 degrees of anhyzer does not give you the same flight as pulling through flat then rolling the disc 10 degrees anhyzer.
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  #13  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:54 PM
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jrawk jrawk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Yeah....if you think of it that way, the axis you are torquing at the moment of release is very close to the point on the rim directly across from your pinch point (since you are impeding your grip/pinch point's forward velocity while the rest of your disc is moving forward.

The only way you can get on-axis torque is some goofy wrist curl and arm motion that has a radius equal to the disc.

OAT is a dumb term.....even dummer that it sounds all scientificky yet manages to get the science all wrong.

Who even coined the term? It is only in the last couple years on DGCR that I have seen it (not like I go a lot of other places and read about throwing mechanics).
Concur

And i don't know. Probably somebody on DGR.
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  #14  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:00 PM
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Toro71 Toro71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwingles View Post
Toro,
Re: plane vs release angle

You can bring the disc thru on one plane, and release it on another. Unintentional wristroll is prolly the easiest example. But there are ways to use it positively also.
Oh, thanks. I can 'see' what you (and Dave) mean by this, and how it applies...

As far as "using" oat with intent...let's talk again this time next year.

I'm still trying to avoid it. To avoid finishing "thumbs down" when I throw full power.

I mean really, I have a degree in English, what the he** am I even doing on this thread, lol.

Last edited by Toro71; 03-28-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:02 PM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Who even coined the term?
Dave Dunipace, IIRC. You can find the term used on the PDGA forums back at least as far as 2005 and it's even in the description of the Destroyer on the Innova site:

Quote:
The Destroyer is a very fast stable long distance driver. This disc is much like a faster Wraith, but with a little more high and low speed stability. Great disc for sidearm throwers and those with lots of power. Can handle headwinds and throws with off axis torque. Not suggested for beginning players.
You understand what OAT is, but you don't understand how large its effects are. Pretty much anyone who's ever accidentally turned over a disc that isn't understable has shown that you can impart enough OAT on a disc to drastically change it's flight path. Anyone who's worked to eliminate their OAT can show you how they can throw a putter on a hyzer and get it to keep it's angle or throw it on a hyzer and get it to turn and crash into the ground.
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  #16  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:12 PM
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DG_Before_Breakfast DG_Before_Breakfast is offline
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OAT is one of those technical terms no one seems to agree on what it really is, and whether it really is your problem.

Honestly, I don't have the kind of body awareness, or a video camera on me, to try to understand how to adjust my technique accurately anyway. I try to get a smooth run up and keep my motion consistent, then lean back for anhyzer, or lean forward for hyzer.
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  #17  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:19 PM
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bradharris bradharris is offline
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The term actually makes complete sense.

Torque is any rotational force applied to an object. When you throw a disc you're giving it torque in order to get it to spin on a level plane. For a hyzer release, that plane is tilted away from the thrower and for anhyzers it's tiled towards the thrower.

It's nearly impossible to apply torque only on that one single plane. Just because the disc doesn't come out spinning sideways doesn't mean that there wasn't some measure of torque applied in that axis. All of this extra torque is applying rotational force off the intended axis. Thus, it is Off Axis Torque.

Imagine spinning a top on your desk. If you spin it absolutely perfectly, it will stay perfectly straight up and down at the start with the only motion being around it's axis. But that never happens, there is always a bit of wobble, this is because of the torque being applied in an infinite number of other axes. Too much of this OAT and the top will simply crash to the ground. With a minimal amount, the "On-axis" torque will dominate and keep the top standing.
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  #18  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:28 PM
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Pwingles Pwingles is offline
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The rotational weight stabalizes the top, given it hasnt had too much multi directional force applied to it and it can try to right itself rotating around its original center. Same with a disc. Its stability is largely related to the mass rotating on the perimeter. Different rpm creates different wing and nose angle which create more pressure on the top of the disc, reduces lift, and increases the rate that it will fall/fade.
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  #19  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:36 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
You understand what OAT is, but you don't understand how large its effects are. Pretty much anyone who's ever accidentally turned over a disc that isn't understable has shown that you can impart enough OAT on a disc to drastically change it's flight path. Anyone who's worked to eliminate their OAT can show you how they can throw a putter on a hyzer and get it to keep it's angle or throw it on a hyzer and get it to turn and crash into the ground.
Good to know I understand correctly......seriously: when I posted this I had a nagging feeling OAT might be referring more to the motion of the arm in the pull-through that the actual imparting of torque onto the disc on release.

That said, accidentally turning a disc over has almost everything to do with rolling the wrist (or leaning back or whatever it takes) to get the plane of the disc into an anhyzer position. It has almost nothing to do with rotational velocity on the disc around the front-to-back axis ("roll" in the airplane vernacular).

One of the main reasons OAT has very limited affect (other than the vastly lower proportional speed to its On-Axis velocity and forward velocity), is the gyroscopic effect of a spinning disc....especially one weighted mostly on the perimeter. If you have ever taken a bicycle wheel, held it by the axle and spun it, you will notice that it really resists any OAT (including any wobble induced onto it).
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  #20  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:41 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradharris View Post
Imagine spinning a top on your desk. If you spin it absolutely perfectly, it will stay perfectly straight up and down at the start with the only motion being around it's axis. But that never happens, there is always a bit of wobble, this is because of the torque being applied in an infinite number of other axes. Too much of this OAT and the top will simply crash to the ground. With a minimal amount, the "On-axis" torque will dominate and keep the top standing.
Are you talking about precession? I am having a hard time imagining wobbling that is not precession (unless the top is out of balance. Like a glob of mud on the rim of a disc like Carnavas said upthread...or an Epic)
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