#41  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:32 PM
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Pwingles Pwingles is offline
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Ya but if this were a formula, lets say;

A+B=a multi directional throw

A being your approach, B being your secondary angle/direction thats intended, which you impart at the end of the throw, the result should match your approach in flight.

Hyzer release that gradually or abruptly depending on your intention, flips.

Warmer?
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  #42  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:40 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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GG has a good amount of oat per say. Full hyzer with the body, arm is reached back and pulling through anhyzer and releasing hyzer. A number of top pros do that including Shoestrings.
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  #43  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:50 PM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
I wish I had become a aeronautical engineer rather than electrical....or had the passion to learn like I did back in the day. I admittedly have a ton to learn if I wanted to about aerodynamics (and some aspects physics too).....but I do know this: there a variety of forces acting on a disc as it flys....and those forces are are changing on their own and in relation to each other as the velocity, rotation speeds, smoothness of the material, density of the air, angles, etc change. Very complex and fascinating!
FWIW, I'm an EE as well.



Quote:
This sounds convincing, but I would like to see video evidence of this. I suspect that possibly what is happening is their pull through is a hyzer, but their release is actually anyhzer.....and little had to do with actual rotation of the disc along its front-to-back axis. Again, I am open to being wrong......I am a total neophyte as a student of throwing mechanics.
Go to any busy course and find a guy throwng a super fast disc 250'. It shouldn't be hard to do. As him to throw a putter on a hyzer full power. You'll get to witness it first hand. People are so adamant this is true because it's so common and so many of use have dealt with it.


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But, assuming the that flight plates are the same weight, wouldn't a narrow rim disc have more angular momentum since the rim weight is concentrated closer to the edge of the disc (a smaller cross-section triangle)?

I suspect the wider rims provide more stability due to the aerodynamics of a wider wing.
You'd have to integrate it out to see for sure, but every observation I've had regarding discs and every conversation I've had with those that know more than me about aerodynamics has told me that faster discs are more gyroscopic. Just spinning the discs on your finger and tapping the edge will give evidence either way. My guess is that little bit of weight slightly farther out won't compensate for the rim being ~2.5 times wider. It's no where near 2.5 times as far away from the center. It's more like 1.3 times as far away. We know there's more overall mass in the rim because it's so difficult for them to make wide rimmed discs light weight in certain plastics (hence the need for Blizzard discs), so we have considerably more mass that's only slightly inward from the rim.

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I don't know. I am pretty sure that the aerodynamics have a lot to do with it.
What evidence do you have for that hypothesis? It sounds like you are just sick of people talking about OAT and are looking for a reason to not listen to them. That's not exactly a very scientific way to look at it especially when the person who probably has the most knowledge of anyone on the planet regarding throwing technique disagrees with you.
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  #44  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:01 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
GG has a good amount of oat per say. Full hyzer with the body, arm is reached back and pulling through anhyzer and releasing hyzer. A number of top pros do that including Shoestrings.
I do not get it. How is that putting rotational force on the disc rather than on the spin of the disc around the injection dimple? (That is what "off-axis torque" implies to me.) How come OAT is not visible?
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  #45  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:14 PM
zj1002 zj1002 is offline
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Dave,

stop

step outside of what you assume or see as OAT

Look at it like this. The body is controlling the OAT and the plane. The body is moving the disc forward on an initial plane. The arm then redirects the disc off the initial line. By using your weight shift, body angles, and push thru you can affect the line the disc takes

The disc is moving with the body. I am not pulling or torquing the disc. I am redirecting my body in a forward push
Make sense?
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  #46  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:21 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
I do not get it. How is that putting rotational force on the disc rather than on the spin of the disc around the injection dimple? (That is what "off-axis torque" implies to me.) How come OAT is not visible?
I see wobble on GG's throw there. Do you not?
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  #47  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:23 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
FWIW, I'm an EE as well.
Cool.....you can't spell beer with an a double E! (or geek in the case of this thread)


Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Go to any busy course and find a guy throwng a super fast disc 250'. It shouldn't be hard to do. As him to throw a putter on a hyzer full power. You'll get to witness it first hand. People are so adamant this is true because it's so common and so many of use have dealt with it.
I hear you....and I would like to see slo mo video before accepting this common phenomenon resulting from the disc rotating on the front-to-back axis due to momentum imparted on it by the thrower rather than it resulting simply the angle of release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
You'd have to integrate it out to see for sure, but every observation I've had regarding discs and every conversation I've had with those that know more than me about aerodynamics has told me that faster discs are more gyroscopic. Just spinning the discs on your finger and tapping the edge will give evidence either way. My guess is that little bit of weight slightly farther out won't compensate for the rim being ~2.5 times wider. It's no where near 2.5 times as far away from the center. It's more like 1.3 times as far away. We know there's more overall mass in the rim because it's so difficult for them to make wide rimmed discs light weight in certain plastics (hence the need for Blizzard discs), so we have considerably more mass that's only slightly inward from the rim.
Yeah....I think it has to do a lot with the thickness/density of the flight plate as to where the moment of angular interia is. A very thin flight plate needs very strong material for any sort of durability. My caveat earlier ("assuming the same flight plate") covered my butt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
What evidence do you have for that hypothesis? It sounds like you are just sick of people talking about OAT and are looking for a reason to not listen to them. That's not exactly a very scientific way to look at it especially when the person who probably has the most knowledge of anyone on the planet regarding throwing technique disagrees with you.
My evidence is watching the precession of a spinning top. It keeps "precessioning" where as a disc flying through the air stops/stabilizes. My only explanation for the is the aerodynamic effect on the disc.

Here's an interesting thought: If a disc kept on "precessioning" (due to OAT) and aerodynamics didn't dampen it (as I think you are suggesting), it would go into an anhyzer angle (right side pointing down), and as it "precessioned" the nose would be up (and the disc would rise and/or stall for a while), and then it would hyzer (so good so far in what we observe).....but then it would go nose down and dive, and then it would go back into anhyzer angle, nose up, hyzer....etc. And, if the OAT put it into a hyzer, eventually it would go nose up, then anny, etc.
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  #48  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:26 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zj1002 View Post
Dave,

stop

step outside of what you assume or see as OAT

Look at it like this. The body is controlling the OAT and the plane. The body is moving the disc forward on an initial plane. The arm then redirects the disc off the initial line. By using your weight shift, body angles, and push thru you can affect the line the disc takes

The disc is moving with the body. I am not pulling or torquing the disc. I am redirecting my body in a forward push
Make sense?
Makes perfect sense. Thank you. That is my complete point of the title of this thread: OAT is an acronym for Off-Axis Torque, but it means something quite different than off-axis torque.

Glad someone gets it.
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  #49  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:32 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I see wobble on GG's throw there. Do you not?
Yes....wobble is indeed caused by OAT. But, does that have anything to do with what people are talking about when they talk about OAT?

For instance, if garublador is helping a person whom he describes as "People with OAT problems will flip discs from a hyzer angle that would normally cause the disc not to flilp."....if he gets them to stop the disc from having that small wobble on release, this will fix their problem?
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  #50  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:34 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Yeah....I think it has to do a lot with the thickness/density of the flight plate as to where the moment of angular interia is. A very thin flight plate needs very strong material for any sort of durability. My caveat earlier ("assuming the same flight plate") covered my butt.



My evidence is watching the precession of a spinning top. It keeps "precessioning" where as a disc flying through the air stops/stabilizes. My only explanation for the is the aerodynamic effect on the disc.

Here's an interesting thought: If a disc kept on "precessioning" (due to OAT) and aerodynamics didn't dampen it (as I think you are suggesting), it would go into an anhyzer angle (right side pointing down), and as it "precessioned" the nose would be up (and the disc would rise and/or stall for a while), and then it would hyzer (so good so far in what we observe).....but then it would go nose down and dive, and then it would go back into anhyzer angle, nose up, hyzer....etc. And, if the OAT put it into a hyzer, eventually it would go nose up, then anny, etc.
I've talked about the first part in another thread here letter to three putt I think.

Regarding the second part, if we were throwing in a vacuum the disc would flip end over end.
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