#261  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:15 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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OK, so we knew this was coming, and iacas makes a good point about par being set for experts. (If anyone wants to discuss how par is set, there are numerous voluminous threads on that already. Right now we're discussing par on Red vs. Blue tees at Rock Ridge Park.)

When pressed by Rodney on Black/Gold/Green tees, iacas said

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
Par doesn't change just because you change tees.
Which is where we started. There are two important issues here.

First, we're getting into an area where disc golf and ball golf are pretty different: in disc golf, expert players throw farther than new players by a huge percentage. Experts playing Rock Ridge will be able to throw more than twice as far as new players. That's generally not the case in ball golf. That's a huge difference, and it must be reflected in the design of the course.

Second, for experts, playing these Red tees would not just be easier -- it would frequently be stupid. On the par fours and fives, the landing areas would all be too close to the tees, and the angles would be wrong for shots to get around corners. Experts would be pitching putters off the tees on some holes and throwing crazy prayers on other holes. With one exception (204'), all the par threes would be under 200', and there would be very little scoring spread. (If you want to have a discussion about par 2's, there are special places for you in these forums, also.) Now many players, including me, might find it fun to play from the red tees occasionally, but it's a different kind of fun, and it's not going to be what I would call a well-designed challenge.

But what I'm saying is that, at least on this course, it doesn't even make sense to talk about what experts would shoot from the Reds, because if there were only experts, there would be no Reds.
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  #262  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:16 AM
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grodney grodney is online now
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
grodney2037642]
I don't care what you "buy" or "see" - open your eyes. It's been done in golf for multiples of the time disc golf has even been around, and it works just fine.

Pick a fight with someone else.
Not trying to pick a fight at all -- just trying to understand. I always have understood that ball golf set the par according to the skill level that would be playing those tees.

How do you explain the pars and tees on this scorecard? This is just a random one from the internet. This isn't abnormal, is it? M and W both have listed ratings and slopes from the 3 shortest tees. Par is "5", for instance, on hole #5 at 393 yds, for both Men and Women. Surely you're not saying it's a 393 yd par 5 for an expert man, right?




Further, I'm not trying to make anybody feel good. I'm trying to make the par match the design of the course. As John said: "To me, the Red tees play a par 65 for Red level players. They certainly wouldn't be considered 65 for Blue level players. And the landing areas wouldn't make sense for Blue level players.". See, better players wouldn't be expected to play from the Reds. The landing areas -- the design of the course -- wouldn't makes sense for their skill level. So why label par for them?

Similarly, if the landing areas and shot lengths DO match the skills of a lower class of players, why not list a par for them?
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  #263  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:23 AM
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p.s. At "my" course, which Stan designed SPECIFICALLY for newbs and kids, I initially set par for newbs and kids. Alas, the backlash was too great for my fragile self, so I caved and changed everything to a par 3 -- since everything is reachable by an expert. Such is life.
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  #264  
Old 06-14-2013, 10:25 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I realize that what you shoot relative to "par" changes how you feel about your performance - call a 450-yard hole on a golf course a par five and people will feel better about making a 5 than if you call it a par four - but how much do we need to lie to people in order to make them feel good?
Another good point. People may indeed feel better about their score relative to par, but I'm not really concerned about that. What matters is that they enjoy the experience and want to come back. That's the bottom line on why the holes are shorter and easier.

Don't forget that any non-expert who wants the "truth" can always play from the Blue tees.

I confess that there's at least one Red tee that I made extra short in the hope that, as I told the local players and Parks Planner, "they might at least have one deuce on their card." But other than that, I'm not interested in their self-esteem. I set par on the Reds to be reasonable for the people for whom it was designed. I certainly don't expect any new players, other than maybe a few "naturals," to be close to par the first few times out.
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  #265  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:20 PM
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On one hole, not sure which one, I threw 3 shots before I even saw the short tee... didn't play that hole well. I've yet to keep score for an entire round out there, I always end up losing my disc or my phone and stop caring. I don't think I've actually played 17 or 18 all the way through.

So far my favorite holes are 1, 3, 11, 12, 14. It really is a brilliant design, I like how after your drive on the par 4's you get multiple routes to mull over. The best birds I've seen so far were Mattalica birdieing 14 and myself birdieing 1.

Honestly I can't wait for everything to get rounded out and see this course come together. Then we can start getting some competitive golf on and really see what the course can dish out. I do know that our club is ending our singles season out there, that'll be fun.
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  #266  
Old 06-14-2013, 05:18 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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New013,

Hole 6 probably needs some high limbs cut on the rhbh route right now. The big sky hyzer route isn't quite opened yet. The middle sections are pretty tight as they offer the shortest path to the basket. The RHFH route IMO still needs some work. Nobody really throws it because the angle is a little funky right now, and the straighter FH route seems much wider and easier to hit. Noah, Jeff and myself decided to play it some more before we did any drastic trimming or cutting. We can only cut things down once, and don't want to turn that hole into an overly simple one. The only sure bet is that we need to open up the height on the two outside routes. I have been traveling for work a ton, and didn't get out there last weekend. I'll try to get out this weekend, but need to leave early Monday again so no guarantees. I'll try to clean up the big trees on 14, and then maybe head to 6 and take a look.

A agree with most of your favorite hole assessments. I have been working on 14 lately, and sent John a note about how that might be my favorite. I think once it is all cleaned up it is going to be a great looking hole, and a lot of fun to play. Plus all its resident ticks have been coming home with me so it will be tick free eventually.
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  #267  
Old 06-14-2013, 05:34 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by sloppydisc View Post
Plus all its resident ticks have been coming home with me so it will be tick free eventually.
Now that Sloppy guy is a team player.

It always interesting to see which holes people pick as favorites. I've had high hopes for #14 all along, and I've always liked #12 a lot, though that one seems to also be on some people's "least favorite" list. Nice to see some love for #11 -- I didn't expect that one to stand out much either way.
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  #268  
Old 06-14-2013, 05:35 PM
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I really like that right route on 14, mostly because I don't have a consistent enough FH to take the middle route.

I don't get how anybody doesn't like 12. I like 11 a lot cuz when you hit it the shot just looks great going down the hill. I'd probably like 7 if it hadn't destroyed me everytime I play it.
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  #269  
Old 06-14-2013, 08:01 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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The right route is tough for me. You probably have the arm to make the fade land in the correct area. I don't. I come up a little short and then have to throw an anny around the corner. I think next time I play I will try throwing a putter or mid up the middle, and then trying to get a big second shot. But that is what is cool. There are a few different ways to attack it. I think the FH route needs a little work, but if you hit that line the second shot is much easier.

I like 12, but it is a little more cut and dry, and doesn't offer a lot of choices off the tee like 14. I haven't played 11 since the tee area was created. I may really like it now that I don't have to trip over roots and roll down the slope.
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  #270  
Old 06-14-2013, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Not trying to pick a fight at all -- just trying to understand. I always have understood that ball golf set the par according to the skill level that would be playing those tees.
Kind of.

Par is set based on the expert player for any given set of tees on any given hole. It's done for male expert players and female expert players.

Players are then asked to play the tees that are most appropriate for how they hit the ball. But if an 80-year-old can only drive the ball 150, then he may still find a 400-yard par four to be unreachable in two, but the par is still four. We don't change the par to six for that guy because he's old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
How do you explain the pars and tees on this scorecard?
There's not a whole lot to explain.

The course doesn't have any par sixes for the "rec level" player. The par is 72 for all players. Players will select tees that are appropriate for them.

If for some reason a scratch male golfer is playing the green tees, he'd better shoot 61. He'll know that the 393-yard hole is not a par five for him that day - he's playing the forward-most tees which are, to be non-politically correct, the "women's tees."

Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Further, I'm not trying to make anybody feel good. I'm trying to make the par match the design of the course. As John said: "[B]To me, the Red tees play a par 65 for Red level players.
That's the point I'm making - golf doesn't make concessions for "red level players." It draws two lines of distinction: male and female (and occasionally for little kids).

I understand having separate tees. Golf does that - players typically choose the tees that are appropriate for the distance they hit the ball (it's not 2:1 as in disc golf, so the tees aren't set up 2:1 either). But the equivalent to what we see in disc golf would be for a golf hole to have one tee: a 400-yard tee that is rated as a "par 4" for "pro" players and a "par 6" for "rec players."

For example, in disc golf, a bad example would be if the 340-foot hole had a sign that said "Pro Par: 3 / Rec Par: 4".

The hole should be a par three. If you are able to set a second tee, call it a par three and make it 270' or something. Then let rec level players use that tee.

In other words, pros can play the "black tees" and "rec level" players can play the "white tees." Not "pros can play it as a par three, rec level can play it as a par four."

And let's imagine a course where there is only one set of tees… why list a separate par for the "Rec level" player? Again, what about those who are in between? Which do they use?

I think there's very little upside to making the rec level player think they're "good" by artificially inflating par for them. If you can let them play the same par at shorter tees, great. If that's not an option, well, the 80-year-old playing at Oakmont is playing the course at the same par as the Tiger Woods, even if he's playing the forward-most tees available to him while Tiger plays the back ones.
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