Old 10-07-2013, 10:26 PM
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Allurex Allurex is offline
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Comparing Round Ratings - 2013 GBO vs AM Worlds

I played in both of these events, which were held on the same courses in Emporia Kansas. Other than the occasional small change, Municipal Golf Course, Emporia Country Club, and Jones East were set nearly the same for the GBO in April as for AM Worlds in July.

For reference, the information pages for both events-


And the results/ratings on PDGA-


The page for the worlds results can be incredibly complicated, because the Advanced division was split into 3 different pools, then shuffled after 3 rounds. So few players played the same courses on the same day. Since I was there, I'll pick a few players who I know were in which pools and played which courses on which days.

Municipal - M
Jones West - JW
Jones East - JE
Country Club - CC
Peter Pan - PP

Steven Jacobs - M - JW - JE - CC - PP - M - JE
Peter Bures - JW - JE - M - CC - PP - M - JE
Matt Crowe - JW - JE - M - M - PP - CC

Now because the GBO only used M, CC, and JE, we'll look at the scores and ratings for those courses

Steven Jacobs -
Municipal - 59 - 976
Jones East - 52 - 1025
Country Club - 53 - 1034
Municipal - 56 - 1002
Jones East - 57 - 980

Peter Bures (Me) -
Jones East - 56 - 989
Municipal - 57 - 993
Country Club - 63 - 949
Municipal - 66 - 915
Jones East - 61 - 994

Matt Crowe -
Jones East - 64 - 917
Municipal - 67 - 906
Municipal - 62 - 950
Country Club - 64 - 940

Now, let's look at similar scores from the Pro Division at the GBO. We'll be going based off of the Information Page, which lists the Pros as having played Municipal, Jones East, and Country Club, in that order.

Municipal -
Will Schusterick - 56 - 1052
Paul Ulibarri - 59 - 1031
Kody Custard - 62 - 988

Jones East -

Paul McBeth - 53 - 1049
Kody Custard - 56 - 1025
Robert Nichols - 65 - 952

Country Club -

Nikko Locastro - 56 - 1068
David Feldberg - 63 - 1024
Ben Wiggins - 64 - 1017

By comparison, the rounds by the Pros at GBO were around 30 points higher than the players at AM Worlds, except for the Country Club, where the rounds were rated nearly 70 points higher! Now, it's pretty obvious that the conditions must have been worse at the GBO, and it's true. At the GBO, it was cold and really windy, while at AM Worlds, the wind was still a huge factor but not nearly as much as at GBO, and the weather was nicer. Without looking it up, the average weather at each event was something like-

GBO - 45/65 Degrees, Winds 15-25
AM Worlds - 80/95 Degrees, Winds 10-20

So instead of cold and really windy, it was hot and still pretty darn windy. So why the gigantic gap in the ratings? The conditions were worse but not much, there may have been a couple of things changed at the Municipal Golf Course, but not nearly so much as would cause a big change in the ratings.

A thought I've had was that because the average player rating in the Pro Divison at GBO was so much higher than the same average of players at AM Worlds, maybe the round ratings came out higher. I've always been told (Chuck) that such things don't affect how the ratings come out, but I thought I ought to check.

So now I'll compare round ratings by Advanced Players at the GBO, and see how they compare to similar scores by players in the Pro Division. Luckily, I can just use two of the same names from Worlds. (Advanced division at the GBO played Country Club, Municipal, and Jones East, in that order)

Peter Bures -
Country Club - 69 - 967 (Would have been a 986 in Open)
Municipal - 64 - 995 (995)
Jones East - 61 - 984 (984)

Matt Crowe -
Country Club - 69 - 967 (986)
Municipal - 71 - 945 (945)
Jone East - 70 - 912 (N/A)

What we see is that the ratings for Municipal and Jones East are exactly the same, while the ratings for the Country Club are nearly 20 points worse for Advanced than Open. What was different about Pro's round Sunday at CC than when the AMs played it on Friday? If the conditions were that much worse on Sunday, why didn't the round ratings from Jones East come out differently for the AMs?

I don't really have an agenda with this post, I'm just genuinely curious why the vast difference from GBO to Worlds. It's rare to have two different events play the (almost) exact same layouts of courses within just a few months, so I thought it was interesting to compare. I really wonder if the difference in conditions made that much of a difference, seeing as how they were worse at GBO but not **that** much worse.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:34 PM
ChrisHyzer ChrisHyzer is offline
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the courses were different in layout, apperently the country club was shortened almost 2000ft for AM world's is what i was told while at world's. that would effect the ratings.
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:28 PM
ScottyLove ScottyLove is offline
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I played in both and CC was definitely different (shorter) for Am Worlds. The others were very close if not identical.

My bigger gripe was that during GBO, they averaged the rounds... which is INSANE. The wind on the 3rd day was 40+ MPH and nothing close to that the first 2 days. I saw a drive go backwards on Sunday. So averaging the 3rd day was absolutely incorrect IMHO.

Back to your original questions... I too noticed the difference. The trend I see and most see but yet we're told it doesn't matter is that the higher rating of the players in a pool, the higher the ratings. I see that all the time in C-tiers here where the field is split. Advanced & Pro will have higher initial ratings before they are averaged when they go official.
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:33 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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They only average them if the SSAs are closer than a couple strokes, they do it by numbers not by looking at the conditions.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:26 AM
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Allurex Allurex is offline
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I guess I'd forgotten that CC was made shorter for Worlds, although I don't recall it being 2000 feet shorter. I can only remember a couple of holes that had either a shorter basket (#3), or a different teepad (#15). The same was the case at Municipal, with only a couple of changes that were less than 100 feet difference each.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:36 AM
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TalbotTrojan TalbotTrojan is offline
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The way the ratings are done, this does not surprise me. My ratings are generally higher when I play in a pro only event. When I play with just Ams, my ratings are lower. Sure the conditions played into it, but who the propagators are also play into it.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:33 AM
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steven2361 steven2361 is offline
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MC and CC were definitely way shorter for AM Worlds
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:03 AM
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Allurex Allurex is offline
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Based on my memory-

1. Teepad moved about 50 feet shorter
2. Same
3. Same
4. Same
5. Teepad 50 feet shorter
6. Same
7. Same
8. Teepad 50 feet shorter
9. Same
10. Same
11. Same
12. Same
13. Same
14. Same
15. Same
16. Same
17. Same
18. Basket 100 feet shorter off of the hill (Par 4 instead of Par 5)

Country Club-
1. Same
2. Same
3. Basket 100 feet shorter (Par 3 instead of Par 4)
4. Same
5. Same
6. Same
7. Same
8. Same
9. Same
10. Same
11. Same
12. Basket 75 feet shorter
13. Teepad moved left, easier hyzer shot
14. Same
15. Teepad 50 feet shorter
16. Same
17. Same
18. Same

Not all that much different, in my mind.
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