#811  
Old 01-15-2016, 07:56 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Really excited about Strawn. We just had biblical arc-type rain when Winter Storm Goliath rolled through; if it drained well after all that water the property should be getting in shape.
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  #812  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:01 PM
Oxcart2006 Oxcart2006 is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
I've started work on a really nice new tournament-level course in the San Antonio area[/url]
As a San Antonio player, I would LOVE some more information about this!
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  #813  
Old 01-27-2016, 06:49 PM
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Countchunkula Countchunkula is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
Really excited about Strawn. We just had biblical arc-type rain when Winter Storm Goliath rolled through; if it drained well after all that water the property should be getting in shape.
The resulting canyon should make for some wild cliff shots.
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  #814  
Old 02-27-2016, 11:13 PM
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MarkDSM MarkDSM is offline
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102g scaled birdie.

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  #815  
Old 03-20-2016, 11:48 PM
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Wreck Wreck is offline
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Default Getting Design Experience w/o Stepping on Toes

Hey John,

First off, though I know you're an incredibly busy guy, I want to thank you for all the time you've taken over the years to field questions on here. I've been helping with the design of a local course, and have read anything and everything I can find (including this entire thread) about your take on course design. I see it's been a while since your last response, so I thought I would throw one up for the next time you come around; it's a bit of a different question though.

I realize this isn't about course design per se, but thought you might have some wisdom to share.

I've been wanting to get into design for quite some time. I get more thrill from the design process than playing anymore. While I've helped with a private course design, and have come up with alternative designs (to existing baskets) on a couple 9 holers in the area, I've not had the opportunity to help in the initial install for a public course. That may be changing soon, but I'm running into some obstacles which are more interpersonal than political/topographical/etc.

We have an older guy that's been a primary designer for most courses installed in the area in the last decade. While he's done a great job, his courses all have a signature "style" (as one would expect) and many of us in the area would like to see a course with a bit of a different "feel" to it--a bit more on the longer, mid 60's par golf side. The issue is, when a new course is in the works, he's the first person getting involved in the process. I totally get it; nobody will argue he's "the guy" in our neighborhood for design and a wealth of knowledge.

However, few of us younger guys (some of our younger club members and myself) want to start gaining some experience, and we're not sure how to go about it. Whenever a new course is approved, whether he's asked or not, he goes about putting together a master layout. While this would be fine as part of a larger collaboration with multiple design proposals, there is this group-think response to his designs that say, well since he's doing this a while, his design must be best. There is seldom any instance where other people are putting together designs, or in the few instances they do, his are adopted without much discussion because of the experience he's gained.

I should be clear--this hasn't happened to me or a design I've proposed--but I am working with him on this current design project. My fear (relevant or not) is that my ideas will get steam-rolled. I already had this happen, to small degree, during a walk-through of the property with this older guy. We met up and showed each other our design ideas, then walking the property, most of the discussion was about his hole ideas and basically dismissed my concept for the course.

I know I'm green and have a lot to learn, but I also feel confident that this is something I can be good at with practice. I need the support of the existing guru though, and don't feel I have it. I'm a bit lost as how to get it too.

I say all this to ask: Do you have any thoughts on how to "break-in" to design? Further, do you have any specific ideas on how to gain the support of my more experienced design partner? (FWIW, there are 1-2 more that will be involved in the design process, but they have yet to develop a layout proposal and may not even get to it).

I understand that his concepts may be better than my own, but I don't know how to get him to entertain new ways of looking at holes. Many of his courses have this very signature feel to them, and there's a growing consensus that we could use new perspectives. I'm in a position to influence, but want to do it in a strategic way.

Thanks in advance!
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  #816  
Old 03-21-2016, 08:37 AM
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goosefraba1 goosefraba1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wreck View Post
Hey John,

First off, though I know you're an incredibly busy guy, I want to thank you for all the time you've taken over the years to field questions on here. I've been helping with the design of a local course, and have read anything and everything I can find (including this entire thread) about your take on course design. I see it's been a while since your last response, so I thought I would throw one up for the next time you come around; it's a bit of a different question though.

I realize this isn't about course design per se, but thought you might have some wisdom to share.

I've been wanting to get into design for quite some time. I get more thrill from the design process than playing anymore. While I've helped with a private course design, and have come up with alternative designs (to existing baskets) on a couple 9 holers in the area, I've not had the opportunity to help in the initial install for a public course. That may be changing soon, but I'm running into some obstacles which are more interpersonal than political/topographical/etc.

We have an older guy that's been a primary designer for most courses installed in the area in the last decade. While he's done a great job, his courses all have a signature "style" (as one would expect) and many of us in the area would like to see a course with a bit of a different "feel" to it--a bit more on the longer, mid 60's par golf side. The issue is, when a new course is in the works, he's the first person getting involved in the process. I totally get it; nobody will argue he's "the guy" in our neighborhood for design and a wealth of knowledge.

However, few of us younger guys (some of our younger club members and myself) want to start gaining some experience, and we're not sure how to go about it. Whenever a new course is approved, whether he's asked or not, he goes about putting together a master layout. While this would be fine as part of a larger collaboration with multiple design proposals, there is this group-think response to his designs that say, well since he's doing this a while, his design must be best. There is seldom any instance where other people are putting together designs, or in the few instances they do, his are adopted without much discussion because of the experience he's gained.

I should be clear--this hasn't happened to me or a design I've proposed--but I am working with him on this current design project. My fear (relevant or not) is that my ideas will get steam-rolled. I already had this happen, to small degree, during a walk-through of the property with this older guy. We met up and showed each other our design ideas, then walking the property, most of the discussion was about his hole ideas and basically dismissed my concept for the course.

I know I'm green and have a lot to learn, but I also feel confident that this is something I can be good at with practice. I need the support of the existing guru though, and don't feel I have it. I'm a bit lost as how to get it too.

I say all this to ask: Do you have any thoughts on how to "break-in" to design? Further, do you have any specific ideas on how to gain the support of my more experienced design partner? (FWIW, there are 1-2 more that will be involved in the design process, but they have yet to develop a layout proposal and may not even get to it).

I understand that his concepts may be better than my own, but I don't know how to get him to entertain new ways of looking at holes. Many of his courses have this very signature feel to them, and there's a growing consensus that we could use new perspectives. I'm in a position to influence, but want to do it in a strategic way.

Thanks in advance!
Personally, if you want to learn more, i would consider this an apprenticeship. Learn as much as you can from him. Heck, contact some of the other course designers in your state. Let them know that you would like to travel when they begin to design a course. Even if it is for one day, you can learn quite a bit from a new perspective.
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  #817  
Old 03-22-2016, 04:27 PM
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goosefraba1 goosefraba1 is offline
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Hey John,

I have a question about designing an entire course around a lake. The pic below features the Blackbear course (we've discussed this one a few times)... this course is in orange. The other course is a future course mockup that I will propose to parks. This mockup only features holes on the East side of the lake. I made basically a figure 8 in order to incorporate fh and bh carries over the water or near the water.

My question is, if we were to try to design the course entirely around the lake, basically one giant 2 mile loop... How would you design the course in order to allow for both fh and bh risk shots?

The only way that I can think to do this is some type of switchback/howdie-do point... but that would be more difficult with the length of the walk around the lake already.

This all of course is farther down the line, however.... there is no time like the present to secure land for the future. We are on very good terms with Parks right now. We are just low on funding. The state park and the state forest split the lake. So, that might make it a little harder to secure all of that lake front. Just trying to gain some knowledge before I present the idea. At the very least, I think that I will gain permission to use this as a temporary course.

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  #818  
Old 03-23-2016, 05:11 PM
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goosefraba1 goosefraba1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goosefraba1 View Post
Hey John,

I have a question about designing an entire course around a lake. The pic below features the Blackbear course (we've discussed this one a few times)... this course is in orange. The other course is a future course mockup that I will propose to parks. This mockup only features holes on the East side of the lake. I made basically a figure 8 in order to incorporate fh and bh carries over the water or near the water.

My question is, if we were to try to design the course entirely around the lake, basically one giant 2 mile loop... How would you design the course in order to allow for both fh and bh risk shots?

The only way that I can think to do this is some type of switchback/howdie-do point... but that would be more difficult with the length of the walk around the lake already.

This all of course is farther down the line, however.... there is no time like the present to secure land for the future. We are on very good terms with Parks right now. We are just low on funding. The state park and the state forest split the lake. So, that might make it a little harder to secure all of that lake front. Just trying to gain some knowledge before I present the idea. At the very least, I think that I will gain permission to use this as a temporary course.

Follow up... spoke to parks a little bit today. The state park actually owns all of the land sorrounding the lake. So, it is possible to have a course using the entire lake
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  #819  
Old 03-23-2016, 05:14 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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So design the course as a complete loop around the lake that can be played in either direction. Odd days it's clockwise and even days it's counterclockwise. It's a little like Ft. Steilacoom where at one time (maybe not now?) they had baskets everywhere with different routing and hole numbering specified on the sign board for that day.

Last edited by Cgkdisc; 03-23-2016 at 05:17 PM.
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  #820  
Old 03-23-2016, 05:25 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
So design the course as a complete loop around the lake that can be played in either direction. Odd days it's clockwise and even days it's counterclockwise. It's a little like Ft. Steilacoom where at one time (maybe not now?) they had baskets everywhere with different routing and hole numbering specified on the sign board for that day.
or don't do that because it is a confusing mess...
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