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View Poll Results: do we need tougher baskets to make putting more rewarding of skilled players
yes we need smaller baskets to reward better putters 12 12.00%
no we need more difficult greens to reward better putters 88 88.00%
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:49 AM
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Difficult Greens vs Difficult Baskets

Looking at other threads and I do not think the answer is tougher baskets. I believe the answer is tougher greens.
I have strived to punish bad shots in my design. This is why on my course (par 54) rec players during tags shoot well over 70 and pros generally are 45-56. The bad shots get punished.
This applies to the greens as well where a missed putt is often OB or down a slope or it is an elevated basket etc.
This nonsense of reinventing the basket is just that nonsense

I think the cult of McBeth is strong but I believe smaller baskets make for an increase in missed 20 footers and lay ups by pros from 50 ft out where on standard baskets the 20 footers are made and runs at basket from 50 ft are typical (ESPN will never broadcast lay ups from 50 ft by pro level players boring)

You want excitement put the baskets on interesting greens where the 20 foot shot should be routine but the penalty for missing is more than a tap in

PUNISH Bad shots designers its that simple
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:53 AM
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Punishing designs are weaker ways to spread scores, make the game less fun and more fluky versus design structures that reward good play.
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Old 02-20-2015, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Punishing designs are weaker ways to spread scores, make the game less fun and more fluky versus design structures that reward good play.
So a course that punishes bad shots is weak?

You prefer a wide open course with flat greens?
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:00 AM
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is there a difference between rewarding good play and punishing bad play?
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:02 AM
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a 30 foot putt in an open field is boring and easy for the best in the world. A 30 foot putt in tight woods around trees and over bushes is much more difficult and exciting. You don't need to crowd the basket, but having a few obstacles in putting range can reward the best drives and not allow players to lean on automatic putting as a crutch when their drives are a little offf.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:03 AM
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yes without a doubt. imo the best courses do both. the key with punishing bad play is to be able to have the "punishment fit the crime" rather than be disproportionate.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:04 AM
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I also "enjoy" courses with death putts and greens with some topography.
There is a course here in St. Louis that was installed in an airport cleared out neighborhood and it has some of the best greens in terms of risk/reward putts. You can run your putt but if you miss, you might be rolling down a hill that takes your comeback putt from 15 ft. to 45 ft.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:05 AM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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as you say- smaller baskets likely equal way more layups and tap ins which does not equal more fun or more interesting.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:06 AM
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I'm a big fan of dangerous greens and baskets that are somewhat smaller (but not so much that they encourage layups).

But....if the dangerous greens are slopes that create rollaways, it's true that they bring a greater aspect of luck into play. For nearly-identical shots, some will sit next to the basket for a tap-in, others may roll far enough to require 2 more shots.

That said, I'm still in favor of the difficult greens because they bring the aspect of weighing odds. If you play it safe, there's a small chance you'll still get that bad luck roll. If you play it aggressively, there's a chance you'll gain a stroke, but also a significant chance of the bad luck roll costing you a stroke. It can be brutal on a single hole, but average out over time.

Not all terrains lend themselves to dangerous greens, though.
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Old 02-20-2015, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
yes without a doubt. imo the best courses do both. the key with punishing bad play is to be able to have the "punishment fit the crime" rather than be disproportionate.
That's the idea. For example, adding something like an OB penalty too close to the basket is too much punishment relative to the "crime of missing" especially with fluky rollaways.
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