#121  
Old 07-27-2010, 09:48 PM
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REDARMY REDARMY is offline
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Originally Posted by Sadjo1 View Post
John - If this has already been covered, I'm sorry...I haven't ready the entire thread.

We're in the midst of designing a course and I suggested a mando on a hole to 'take away' the easy hyzer route for right handed players and 'force' players to throw through six or seven scatted trees. The only other hazard is when players over throw the hole, they might end up in a lake. The lake is 75' behind the basket and the hole plays down hill 302'.

The questions and debate is some players think a mando should only be used for safety reasons and never to add difficulty to a hole. Your thoughts?
personally, i can see both sides of that argument, but i have to go with the 'only for safety' side of it.

if it were my course, i'd put it in as it is, give it a few weeks to let people come through, then gather opinions from those who have played about wether the mando should should be put it or not before you started printing up scorecards and signage.
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  #122  
Old 07-28-2010, 12:26 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Sadjo1 View Post
John - If this has already been covered, I'm sorry...I haven't ready the entire thread.

We're in the midst of designing a course and I suggested a mando on a hole to 'take away' the easy hyzer route for right handed players and 'force' players to throw through six or seven scatted trees. The only other hazard is when players over throw the hole, they might end up in a lake. The lake is 75' behind the basket and the hole plays down hill 302'.

The questions and debate is some players think a mando should only be used for safety reasons and never to add difficulty to a hole. Your thoughts?
That's a really good question, Sadjo. I'm not exactly sure how to improve your hole, since I'm not really sure what it looks like -- maybe you can send a diagram -- but I can give you some general thoughts to chew on.

Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign. There's nothing wrong with having a challenging hyzer route; one of my first questions would be why the water is so far away. Throwing through several "scattered trees" sounda a bit random -- is there a way to move the tee so that those trees offer legitmate routes? Can you toughen up the hyzer so that those routes become worth considering -- maybe plant a tree by the tee so that the hyzer route involves some risk or requires more precision?

The conventional wisdom among course designers is that mandos should always be a last resort, and that they're better used to ensure safety than as a design "crutch."

As Solomon points out, mandos and OB both make the course harder. But there are key differences. The biggest one is that a mandatory takes away a players' ability to make choices. In a sense, it reduces a player's freedom, and players don't generally like that. If you throw OB, you have only yourself to blame. (Of course that won't stop some players from blamng the designer, or their disc, etc.)

For the record, I think artificial OB should be a next-to-last resort. I'd rather put more effort into careful design than slap some OB on a hole.

Hope that helps.

Thanks,
John
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  #123  
Old 07-28-2010, 12:56 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Rip Van View Post
John, have you had a chance to develop these ideas further? I'd love to see top pros sweating over a 10-footer, instead of taking 30-footers as gimmes. This would also make drive placement much more important, allow for tougher short holes, keep older courses challenging, and let designers put more good holes on a smaller piece of land. Removing all the chains from the targets might do it.
I have, Rip, but I'm still working on it. I'm with you on making drive placement more important, and I'm with you on trying to eliminate gimmes. But the solution I'm working on is pretty complicated and will require more time and experimentation (and probably some failed attempts) before I'll be ready to test it in the real world.

As for removing the chains, I've frequently done that as a practice aid. I found that putting without chains wasn't really that much harder than putting with chains, unless you're putting into the wind. That's when I found myself wishing I had those chains.

What I like about putting without chains is that it requires the right pace as well as the right line, just as in ball golf. But I think there would be a lot of resistance from players at this point in our history. Players love the sound and the symbolism of chains.

Nice to know that a guy named Rip cares so much about the short game. I'll let you know when I have something for show and tell.

Thanks,
John
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  #124  
Old 07-28-2010, 01:46 AM
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Gregor Gregor is offline
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John, are you involved in or know anything about the proposed course in east Austin that is supposed to "replace" Peace park? I don't care to get into anything controversial, just wondering if and when we might get another new course in the area.

Thanks
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  #125  
Old 07-28-2010, 07:28 AM
Rip Van Rip Van is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
What I like about putting without chains is that it requires the right pace as well as the right line, just as in ball golf. But I think there would be a lot of resistance from players at this point in our history. Players love the sound and the symbolism of chains.
Totally agree about that. If I'd have posted anywhere but the "Ask John" thread, I'd have probably had my head ripped off for suggesting going chainless. I'm excited that a guy with some serious design cred is thinking about making the putting game more interesting.

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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Nice to know that a guy named Rip cares so much about the short game.
Well, it's "Rip Van" as in "Winkle" and refers mostly to having taken a long time off from the game (though I'm throwing way farther than before, thanks to the new disc tech). Pretty amazing waking up and seeing how things have changed.

Thanks for the response, John.
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  #126  
Old 07-28-2010, 08:59 AM
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Sadjo Sadjo is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign. There's nothing wrong with having a challenging hyzer route; one of my first questions would be why the water is so far away. Throwing through several "scattered trees" sounda a bit random -- is there a way to move the tee so that those trees offer legitmate routes? Can you toughen up the hyzer so that those routes become worth considering -- maybe plant a tree by the tee so that the hyzer route involves some risk or requires more precision?



Thanks,
John
This is a course on private land. The owner (who also is the one mowing the course) gave us some guidelines to follow with laying out a design. The first was we couldn't remove any trees. Second was keeping all baskets a minimum of 15 feet from any of the trees so his 15' wide mowing deck could pass between baskets and trees.

For you question about the water...the basket is so far from the water because the ground gets 'mushy' and we wanted to avoid any future issues if the water level increases (it's an 80 acre man-made lake) and we felt the basket could end up shifting too much if in softer ground.

What we did to remedy the situation is we moved the tee several feet left of the original tee area which now forces anyone who goes for the hyzer route to really get their shot out quicker.

This course's biggest challenges come in the form of major elevation changes. The course is built on an old apple orchard in the foothills of the Smokey Mountains where most of the old growth apple tree were cut down and we were told to avoid the newer apple trees to not cause any damage to the fruit, the trees or the people that go to the orchard to pick their own fruit. Safety first.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Last edited by Sadjo; 07-28-2010 at 09:02 AM.
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  #127  
Old 07-28-2010, 09:04 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Any time a hole has an easy hyzer route (or an easy straight route, or an easy turnover route), it's probably a candidate for a redesign...
I think I should probably clarify what I meant here. If your hole is so easy that players of a particular skill level are going to birdie it more often than 2 out of 3 times, then you need to look at changing it -- it's too easy.

But 302' downwhill, with some trees, and with at least a threat of water, doesn't sound like it's too easy. There are lots of holes out there that look too easy and feel too easy, but you keep kicking yourself because you didn't birdie them... again.

Hope that makes sense.
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  #128  
Old 07-28-2010, 09:08 AM
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Sadjo Sadjo is offline
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Originally Posted by Rip Van View Post
I'd love to see top pros sweating over a 10-footer, instead of taking 30-footers as gimmes. This would also make drive placement much more important, allow for tougher short holes, keep older courses challenging, and let designers put more good holes on a smaller piece of land. Removing all the chains from the targets might do it.
I've always liked courses that place baskets within a group of trees or some other obstacle that requires not only trying to land their drive or approach shot within 30 feet but also on the 'right' side of the hole due to trees or other obstacles.

Theres a few courses in my area that there is a 30' cleared area by most baskets. Makes it too easy. I like being forced better shot placement due to a tree, rocks, or other objects.
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  #129  
Old 07-29-2010, 12:23 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Rip Van View Post
Totally agree about that. If I'd have posted anywhere but the "Ask John" thread, I'd have probably had my head ripped off for suggesting going chainless. I'm excited that a guy with some serious design cred is thinking about making the putting game more interesting.
I really think that we have a lot of room for improvement there. But there's no easy solution. I think it's doable.

Quote:
Well, it's "Rip Van" as in "Winkle" and refers mostly to having taken a long time off from the game (though I'm throwing way farther than before, thanks to the new disc tech). Pretty amazing waking up and seeing how things have changed.
I suspected that might be the case. But "Van" is a good name for someone who likes driving, too.

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Thanks for the response, John.
Yes, sir. Welcome back.
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  #130  
Old 07-29-2010, 12:35 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Gregor View Post
John, are you involved in or know anything about the proposed course in east Austin that is supposed to "replace" Peace park? I don't care to get into anything controversial, just wondering if and when we might get another new course in the area.

Thanks
Hi, Gregor. I don't know a whole lot about the new park, but I do know that, as of a few weeks ago, there had been no neighborhood meetings about it, and there were no permits to begin construction. That said, I don't know of any major obstacles, and I think there's every reason to believe that we'll see it in the ground, maybe even in 2010.

I'm not ready to talk about "replacing" Pease. I think there's still room for optimism that there will still be a course at Pease when it's all said and done. The disc golf community really made a good showing at the public meeting, and the parks department was clearly receptive to some of the arguments we made. That discussion is far from over.

Thanks,
John
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