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  #371  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:42 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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You're not John!
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  #372  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:44 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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I was spilling his "proprietary" secret.
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  #373  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:48 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by sloppydisc View Post
Ok, after grinding away on Rock Ridge #17 I have a question! Feel free to disregard this if answering gives away and proprietary business knowledge.

When designing a course should or do you consider the landscapes degree of difficulty? As in, do you look at an area and say "this has to be a short hole because to make a 500' hole through here will either take way too much time, labor or money."

Or, do you simply create the best design possible, and ignore the financial and labor considerations? Or does it depend on who's doing the labor and/or rotting the bill?
Fair question. If I know you're on the construction team, Mr. Sloppy, then I'm confident that we'll be able to do whatever needs to be done.

Seriously, you know I appreciate how hard the volunteer team has been working on this one, especially you, Jeff, and Noah. And that's why I always try to ask before I widen a fairway or add a PITTSBORO: "Do you guys think you can handle this, and will it be worth it, or should we dial it back here?" I was shocked when I heard that you had cleared the last 150' on left side of #1, because I told Jeff that it could be something to do down the road. You have all been amazing, and I hope that every time you play the course you'll have at least one instance where you can say "if I hadn't cut down a couple trees here, I wouldn't be in the fairway right now."

The bottom line answer to your question is that it wouldn't make sense to disregard financial and labor considerations. If a city or landowner couldn't foot the bill, then the course would never be done properly. If I asked for more than the volunteers were willing to handle, then again the course wouldn't get done, or it would get done with hard feelings, and that would not be good outcome.

The truth is that, especially on a wooded course, I could always make fairways wider in spots, but you have to draw the line somewhere. So that's a conversation that I have with the client up front, so I understand where they think the limits are. And often we have that conversation again in mid-project, when I find something that I think would really add to the course but would take more dollars and/or effort. Then they have to decide if they think it's worth it. A good example is the bridge to the island on #7 at Selah Lakeside. That was a very expensive bridge, but it allowed us to create on of the coolest holes in the world. I had that same conversation several times with owners of Hillcrest Farm in Prince Edward Island, too. And the volunteers at Austin Ridge come to mind.

It's far more common, at least in my experience, that the design limits have to do with the size, species, and/or number of trees we can remove. Those concerns more often have to do the with aesthetics and health of the forest than with financial considerations.

Hole #17 at Rock Ridge is a good example of extra labor versus finished project. I know it's been brutal for you guys, but I'm hoping the enjoyment you and everyone gets from that hole will be worth it. And I hope players will take the opportunity to thank everyone who has worked so hard.

I plan to have at least one day on this upcoming trip to haul some brush myself, so please make sure you save some for me. Talk to you soon.
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  #374  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:52 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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OK, now that the proprietary cat is out of the bag, "Yes-No-Yes" is basically right.

Now, let me see if I can think of an appropriate secret of Chuck's to spill. Hmm. Can't really think of any. Help me out here, Chuck.
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  #375  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:55 PM
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jsc430 jsc430 is offline
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Thanks for all your answers John! We all appreciate your time!
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  #376  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:57 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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Was just curious how much it plays into your thought process. I could see a situation where either labor limits, or it simply taking so much time and effort to create a great hole in an area, that a designer could get forced to make a weaker design as a compromise. Even without money being an issue. And I could really understand if someone simply said let's just make that a tight little par 3, cut a small path though the tough area, and then create another hole after. And things like rocks, elevation or extremely rugged landscapes could really make the thought process interesting.

Don't worry about 17. It put up a good fight, but in the end we were victorious. The only problem now is that I foresee a lot of double bogeys or worse on that hole in my future.
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  #377  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:04 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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I think most designers think in terms of designing cool holes tempered by their doability. If the hole is worth doing but not with the current budget, we might try to break it into phase 1 and a later phase 2 so we can eventually get it done.
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  #378  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:06 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by sloppydisc View Post
Was just curious how much it plays into your thought process. I could see a situation where either labor limits, or it simply taking so much time and effort to create a great hole in an area, that a designer could get forced to make a weaker design as a compromise...
All great courses involve compromises. Part of my job is to make sure players are so happy that nobody ever suspects there was a compromise.

Quote:
Don't worry about 17. It put up a good fight, but in the end we were victorious. The only problem now is that I foresee a lot of double bogeys or worse on that hole in my future.
Victory! That's going to be a great hole. And don't worry about the double bogeys -- we'll just make it wider...
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  #379  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:07 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Thanks for all your answers John! We all appreciate your time!
Yes, sir. My pleasure. Thanks for reading.
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  #380  
Old 01-06-2013, 08:31 PM
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Sadjo Sadjo is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
I think most designers think in terms of designing cool holes tempered by their doability. If the hole is worth doing but not with the current budget, we might try to break it into phase 1 and a later phase 2 so we can eventually get it done.
This is really the way to go with a heavily wooded course. We did this at Shaver Rec in Seneca SC. We bought additional sleevs and o ver time added 2nd pin placements on 7 holes. One of those required a bridge...and that was a big project.

Doing it this way allowed the course to be played sooner and allowed to see what was working and what wasn't.

Last edited by Sadjo; 01-06-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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