#41  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Sports_Fan_Stan Sports_Fan_Stan is offline
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Originally Posted by HouckDesign View Post
John's written a couple of article about DUMB holes and he knows this is an important discussion. He'll write back to you when he has a little more time. Dee
Here is a link of the article.
http://www.houckdesign.com/dumbholes.html
Very interesting how that article refers to the traditions in ball/stick golf. I imagine that Mr. Houck has taken a bunch of static over the years for using BG concepts in DG course design. Enjoyed the article, thanks!!!
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  #42  
Old 04-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Rockwell Rockwell is offline
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Great article

That Dumb Holes article was brilliant! I love to see thinking men taking our sport to the next level. Both in course design and written word.
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  #43  
Old 04-22-2010, 10:35 AM
HouckDesign HouckDesign is offline
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Originally Posted by cheddapig View Post
hey wouled you guys be interesed in designing a course in pottstown pa
We would welcome the opportunity to design in PA. Please send us an email from our website and we will see what we can do to get you a HouckDesign course in Pottstown. In fact, I'm originally from PA. Grew up outside Pittsburgh! Beautiful country! :-) Dee
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  #44  
Old 04-22-2010, 12:12 PM
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cydisc cydisc is offline
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Originally Posted by Sports_Fan_Stan View Post
Very interesting how that article refers to the traditions in ball/stick golf. I imagine that Mr. Houck has taken a bunch of static over the years for using BG concepts in DG course design. Enjoyed the article, thanks!!!
It's funny how what is tradition in BG is considered progessive or even radical in DG. John is one of those who gets it. Don't be skeered y'all.
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  #45  
Old 04-22-2010, 12:41 PM
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billnchristy billnchristy is offline
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Great article (dumb holes). But it made me think...

I recently got to shadow the pro women at the Atlanta Open and yes, a lot of holes do turn out to be dumb for them but I also noticed that, like you said, they are used to long approaches and putts. I would dare say that save for the very top of male pros, these women are better, leaps and bounds better, then the men with their approaches and putts. (Certainly better than their "equally" rated male counterparts.)

If your idea of different tees actually caught on would it help or hurt their game? Surely their scores would lower and maybe we would see a 1000 rated woman...but would they be better golfers?

Personally I think they should have their own rating system as the equalizer...maybe because we do not have a lot of 600+ foot holes here though.
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  #46  
Old 04-22-2010, 01:17 PM
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frisbeeguy frisbeeguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
When is John going to play a PDGA event so he can get a player rating?
Whoa, JH... you've been called OUT!

(happy birthday )
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  #47  
Old 04-22-2010, 01:40 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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If your idea of different tees actually caught on would it help or hurt their game? Surely their scores would lower and maybe we would see a 1000 rated woman...but would they be better golfers?
Here are some interesting stats regarding top women. At PW2007, I designed the Final 9 for the top men, basically, super gold players. The top 4 women played that same layout. On every hole, at least one or more men had a different score than the other guys. This is how John and I determine if we did a good job designing temp holes for this level. On five of these nine holes, all women had the same score. So, only four holes provided a good chance for Des, who was chasing Val, to pick up a shot.

Another study from PW2001 compared groups of Women, Masters/GM and Open Men who all averaged around a 950 rating. All groups averaged the same score on the course being evaluated which is what you would hope is the case if they average the same rating. However, the course was half open and half wooded holes. If you went hole-by-hole, the women and older guys shot a little better than the young guys in the woods. The young guys shot better than the women and older guys on the open holes. So if a course is balanced, players with similar ratings will shoot the same. If it's more open, the younger guys of the same rating will likely do a little better than the women and older guys. Just the opposite for wooded courses.
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  #48  
Old 04-22-2010, 01:48 PM
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billnchristy billnchristy is offline
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I guess that confirms it is bad design for women then if there is no scoring spread.

I really like the points made but the problem lies in the feasibility...you either have 6-7 concrete eyesores dotting the landscape per hole or you end up with 6 rutted, crappy natural tees dotting the landscape and one nice concrete pad for the gold tee that everyone ends up playing anyways...how do you fix that?
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  #49  
Old 04-22-2010, 02:14 PM
Sports_Fan_Stan Sports_Fan_Stan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
...I really like the points made but the problem lies in the feasibility...you either have 6-7 concrete eyesores dotting the landscape per hole or you end up with 6 rutted, crappy natural tees dotting the landscape and one nice concrete pad for the gold tee that everyone ends up playing anyways...how do you fix that?
This sure seems like the key dilemma.
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  #50  
Old 04-22-2010, 02:31 PM
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Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billnchristy View Post
...you either have 6-7 concrete eyesores dotting the landscape per hole
If done well (flush with the ground, maybe some border and/or mulch around it) I don't think they have to be eyesores and then 3 boxes per hole could be fairly done. The question is do you have the space/time/money to do all that.
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