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Old 11-09-2010, 08:00 PM
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Discussion: The Plant/Pivot Foot

Alrighty ya'll, what I want to discuss is Plant/Pivot Foot. The reason being is that I've seen some people have issues with it (including myself) and would like to elaborate on it a bit more with some technical knowledge from whoever has it.

The reason I want to discuss this is because of the physical impact that occurs at this moment of the throw where your front foot plants, pivots, and carries your weight into the follow through. Older players have had issues with their ankles, knees, and hips do to this moment of impact. It also happens to mess with our form as some spin on their foot in awkward ways (like I use to), some spin subtly (like I do now), and others don't spin but carry their weight forward in a way beneficial to the throw.

Dave Feldberg
Avery Jenkins
Jussi Meresmaa

These are fellows with a few different styles of plant but you'll notice several things. The first that I pay attention to is that the pivot is on the ball of the foot. Even though Jussi's isn't as prominent as the others its still there. Then I notice that as they plant their leg seems very straight (knee bent just a touch) As they move into the pull their leg straightens then bends naturally. However the knees only seems to straighten as long as it takes the foot to pivot, as soon as its forward it bends immediately.

Now I have a martial arts/wrestling background and have spent years doing sports on the balls of my feet learning the heel to be a bad thing. As a workshop with Jay and Des Reading Des talked about the weight needing to transfer down and forward and if you spin then your weight is transferring up and forward which kills your full distance potential. I've managed to transfer my weight down but I still spin so I don't think its quite there yet.

Anyone else with thoughts? I've noticed that another friend of mine who does this has shin splits and small knee issues. I've noticed myself with small shin pain... Thoughts as a whole? This seems to be a big part in controlling follow through..
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:31 PM
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Hey there cfair (hey that rhymes). I think the knee bend on the 'plant' step absorbs a lot of the energy/inertia of the throw. But if ur doing a big drive, with lots of torque, I think it's natural to have some post impact spin. If u watch just about any videos with Beto driving u'll see him spinning a little after his drives. Also, I think some (a lot?) of players will spin on their heels as opposed to the balls of the feet. But seriously, watch some Beto videos from his 'joeveenpresents' channel to see him spinning his way to success!
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:50 PM
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Dan Beto Drive Analysis

Oh I've watched plenty of dan beto but is throw is very similar to dave and Jussi's. The biggest difference being that dan's pivot happens and then he shifts his weight off to the side, not circular. This come from his work with Blake and doing thousands of throws from a standing right peck drill and slowly beginning to include steps. Just a little twist of his own that most people don't bother with, they just let their weight carry them forward.

I wish I could find a good video of it but GG and David Wiggins Jr both have this weird stall throw that practically stops their momentum and rockets the disc. They almost don't have a follow through after their foot pivots.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfair View Post
Dan Beto Drive Analysis

Oh I've watched plenty of dan beto but is throw is very similar to dave and Jussi's. The biggest difference being that dan's pivot happens and then he shifts his weight off to the side, not circular. This come from his work with Blake and doing thousands of throws from a standing right peck drill and slowly beginning to include steps. Just a little twist of his own that most people don't bother with, they just let their weight carry them forward.

I wish I could find a good video of it but GG and David Wiggins Jr both have this weird stall throw that practically stops their momentum and rockets the disc. They almost don't have a follow through after their foot pivots.
That's such a great video! Is there anyone smoother than Dan Beto throwing a golf disc??

Anyway, it's really clear from the video that he spins/rotates/pivots after each of the shots. A good golf disc throw should have good linear as well as good rotational motions going on. But it's the rotational that gives u the 'snap' and I think that's what u see at the end of his drives.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:46 PM
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I don't know about that. I'm not saying its bad he does it, I'm saying its neutral that he does it because the other elements are there. Any of those other guys could have the walk off to the side that he does as well. Now here is the thing. Dan throws about as far as Dave and Jussi, maybe a little farther. HOWEVER he still does the pivot that I'm talking about, his follow through is the same as theirs, he just walks off at the end and I think that is null to what I'm talking about. (and this is why I didn't include beto as an example...)
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:55 PM
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You'll notice a lot of pros will pivot on their heels and some pivot on the balls of their feet. Either way if you've built up a lot of kinetic energy via kinetic linkage you're gonna have to spin somewhere on your feet or you'll tear some ligaments. You just don't want your pivot/plant to be counterproductive to your momentum and inertia.
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Old 11-09-2010, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfair View Post
I don't know about that. I'm not saying its bad he does it, I'm saying its neutral that he does it because the other elements are there. Any of those other guys could have the walk off to the side that he does as well. Now here is the thing. Dan throws about as far as Dave and Jussi, maybe a little farther. HOWEVER he still does the pivot that I'm talking about, his follow through is the same as theirs, he just walks off at the end and I think that is null to what I'm talking about. (and this is why I didn't include beto as an example...)
I guess I'm not getting what ur asking then. In every one of the videos u gave a link to, I notice a pivot or spin toward the end of the throw. To me this is a very natural part of a good golf disc throw. Some may swing that left foot a little further around than the other (Beto vs. Feldberg), but that foot is swinging around in the same direction. If u pay attention to the shoulders during the throw and then the follow through, u can really see the rotation as they make the throw and then complete the throw.
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Old 11-09-2010, 10:27 PM
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I guess I'm not getting what ur asking then.
Yeah, I'm not sure what you're asking us either.

(you being cfair).
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Old 11-09-2010, 10:40 PM
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There is a difference between spin and pivot. The heel or ball pivots and it causes their bodies to rotate forward. Think about the difference between a front kick and round house kick. The one stomps forward and carries the weight with it and the kinetic energy is linear (forward moving). The other requires a rotation and the kinetic energy travels circular so if you don't come into contact with a target it causes you to continue spinning involuntary. The linear transfer is also involuntary however the nature of its inertia causes less total motion. Where the circular momentum involves a lot of following movement.

The fellow in this thread shows an example of a circular momentum or inertia. Where Jussi, Dave, Avery, Dan, and just about every other long thrower has a forward momentum. Now in the case of Dan his momentum is intentionally carried off to the side. It starts forward and he redirects it intentionally. Where the guy in the thread asking for advice has an involuntary motion. Also dan travels off to the side and in a forward/linear motion. One of dan's throws he doesn't redirect his motion and simply carries forward.

I'm not saying don't pivot. I am saying there is a difference between pivot and spin. Where pivot facilitates distance and follow through where spin works against the follow through and cuts distance.
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Old 11-09-2010, 10:46 PM
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So I'm asking how can we talk about this to help people improve. Also for understanding proper technique. At a clinic with mark ellis two of the pros talked to me about something they called "the worm" where the energy transfers from where foot plants, up the leg, is increased with the hips, into the shoulders, and then out the arm and wrist. All of it being the kinetic linking to generate distance and control. But it all started with the motion of the foot planting and pivoting with the weight transfer. I wanna know more about it all and you all's thoughts. I don't think its not important because I've heard a series of pros all talk about it and I've seen the longest throwers be able to stop their weight appropriately (namely GG, Voit, Wiggins, and Avery in a lot of other instances)
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