#3781  
Old 05-25-2013, 05:32 PM
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Micronaut Micronaut is offline
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Regarding Morefadeplz's comments: He does not have it exactly right. He is saying that lift causes flip, but he is referring to lift acting on on the "nose" of the disc. In actuality, this would cause the nose to come up, which would cause the disc to rise vertically, and also slow down. This is why is it important to throw the discs more flat, or nose down for distance. Otherwise the nose will come up, the disc will slow down - basically stall - the decrease in speed will reduce the relative wind on the left wing, and increase it on the right (relatively speaking), causing it to fade hard and "hyzer out". He's right that lift causes turn, but it is lift differential between the left and right wings as I described; not lift in general. This is completely consistent with my prior analysis. As for the disc being "designed to lift," sure discs' wings vary in how they react to relative wind. This is why some discs are more flippy than others.

As to why a pro can do things with a disc that noobies can't, that's like saying that a fighter pilot can do things with an airplane that a novice cannot. This is not surprising, and it doesn't prove anything other than that pros have skills beyond the rest of us.

Regarding Mullethead326's comments: He says a few interesting things. For instance, If you try to throw an Aviar with the same armspeed as a Boss, it's likely that it would turn over on you in a hurry. The reason for this is because at velocities above the design speed of any disc, it will tend to "turn over" on you, and likewise at velocities below the design speed it will "fade"." But why is this true? Could it be for the exact reasons that I already described? Let's read on... "This is made more apparent by a pure headwind or tailwind. A headwind makes the "apparent velocity" of the passing air much greater from the disc's perspective, and a tailwind makes the "apparent velocity" much lower. Doubtless that's something you've observed... and that's why." This "apparent velocity" he is talking about is just a different way of referring to the relative wind. It is referencing how fast the disc is mowing in relation to the wind. With a headwind the disc's "apparent velocity" is greater in relation to the wind, thus the relative wind is greater, resulting in more turn; just as I said. With a tailwind the opposite happens. This analysis actually agrees with mine, although it uses slightly different terminology.

This next part is a little off. "The simple answer for most throwing practices is that you can put as much snap on any disc as you want, and it will carry. Armspeed has to be managed more carefully, otherwise the disc will be moving faster than it's design speed and flip (you can counter this somewhat by throwing an artificial "hyzer flip" with a putter by releasing it hyzer)." He's saying that the spin won't effect the turn, that only the linear momentum of the disc will. But this is wrong. The linear momentum of the entire disc contributes to the relative wind on the spinning wings. The effect of linear momentum and angular momentum are additive in terms of how they effect relative wind on the left and right wings. This is what causes the changes in lift differential between the left and right wings resulting in more turn at high speed and more fade at low speeds. Relative wind is the reason why you need a more overstable disc to fight a headwind. Of course adding some hyzer will help. But if you think about it, the lift differential between the left and right wings is the only way to account for a disc tending to flip up out of a hyzer. If not for greater lift under the left wing, and lesser lift under the right, the disc would tend to maintain its angle of flight.

As for OAT, well heck, wobble is going to throw everything off in terms of aerodynamics and angular momentum. I actually don't understand why OAT would tend to cause more turn (maybe someone here can explain this). I have never actually noticed that. But then, I try to avoid OAT like the plague! : -)
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  #3782  
Old 05-25-2013, 08:19 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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I'm not at all disagreeing that overall airspeed has an effect on the turn and fade of a disc. Like I said above, I'm not an aerodynamic expert so I'm not going to try to argue on how spin does or doesn't contribute to the lift on the two sides of a disc. Every bit of my experience (and everything I've read from everyone other poster who claims to understand the physics) says that spin stabilizes a disc and that more spin helps a disc minimize both turn and fade. If you believe the hype on MVP discs, that's exactly what they claim. Their discs by keeping as much weight to the outside as possible allow the disc to keep it's rotation longer. That allows those discs to have a straight flight without a lot of turn, and a forward fade rather than a hard crash like you'd get out of most discs with good high speed stability.

Your point about a fighter pilot is irrelevant to a situation where the only control a thrower has is at the launch, but even so I don't disagree that more experience and better technique let you do those things that newer players can't. If you pay attention, the vast majority of technique advice is geared toward increasing the spin you put on the disc.
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  #3783  
Old 05-25-2013, 08:37 PM
mullethead326 mullethead326 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micronaut View Post
Regarding Morefadeplz's comments: He does not have it exactly right. He is saying that lift causes flip, but he is referring to lift acting on on the "nose" of the disc. In actuality, this would cause the nose to come up, which would cause the disc to rise vertically, and also slow down. This is why is it important to throw the discs more flat, or nose down for distance. Otherwise the nose will come up, the disc will slow down - basically stall - the decrease in speed will reduce the relative wind on the left wing, and increase it on the right (relatively speaking), causing it to fade hard and "hyzer out". He's right that lift causes turn, but it is lift differential between the left and right wings as I described; not lift in general. This is completely consistent with my prior analysis. As for the disc being "designed to lift," sure discs' wings vary in how they react to relative wind. This is why some discs are more flippy than others.

As to why a pro can do things with a disc that noobies can't, that's like saying that a fighter pilot can do things with an airplane that a novice cannot. This is not surprising, and it doesn't prove anything other than that pros have skills beyond the rest of us.

Regarding Mullethead326's comments: He says a few interesting things. For instance, If you try to throw an Aviar with the same armspeed as a Boss, it's likely that it would turn over on you in a hurry. The reason for this is because at velocities above the design speed of any disc, it will tend to "turn over" on you, and likewise at velocities below the design speed it will "fade"." But why is this true? Could it be for the exact reasons that I already described? Let's read on... "This is made more apparent by a pure headwind or tailwind. A headwind makes the "apparent velocity" of the passing air much greater from the disc's perspective, and a tailwind makes the "apparent velocity" much lower. Doubtless that's something you've observed... and that's why." This "apparent velocity" he is talking about is just a different way of referring to the relative wind. It is referencing how fast the disc is mowing in relation to the wind. With a headwind the disc's "apparent velocity" is greater in relation to the wind, thus the relative wind is greater, resulting in more turn; just as I said. With a tailwind the opposite happens. This analysis actually agrees with mine, although it uses slightly different terminology.

This next part is a little off. "The simple answer for most throwing practices is that you can put as much snap on any disc as you want, and it will carry. Armspeed has to be managed more carefully, otherwise the disc will be moving faster than it's design speed and flip (you can counter this somewhat by throwing an artificial "hyzer flip" with a putter by releasing it hyzer)." He's saying that the spin won't effect the turn, that only the linear momentum of the disc will. But this is wrong. The linear momentum of the entire disc contributes to the relative wind on the spinning wings. The effect of linear momentum and angular momentum are additive in terms of how they effect relative wind on the left and right wings. This is what causes the changes in lift differential between the left and right wings resulting in more turn at high speed and more fade at low speeds. Relative wind is the reason why you need a more overstable disc to fight a headwind. Of course adding some hyzer will help. But if you think about it, the lift differential between the left and right wings is the only way to account for a disc tending to flip up out of a hyzer. If not for greater lift under the left wing, and lesser lift under the right, the disc would tend to maintain its angle of flight.

As for OAT, well heck, wobble is going to throw everything off in terms of aerodynamics and angular momentum. I actually don't understand why OAT would tend to cause more turn (maybe someone here can explain this). I have never actually noticed that. But then, I try to avoid OAT like the plague! : -)
Hey, to clarify--

I agree that I didn't explain that fully. My goal was to explain as simply as I could the most dominant mechanisms for imparting two characteristics of disc flight, since it was on a thread where I basically assumed minimal knowledge of throwing and physics. The most complete explanation requires a free-body diagram with an analysis of precession and centers of lift and rotation. However, it is far easier to see the effect of linear velocity on lift than it is the effect of angular velocity on lift. (Source: a couple engineering degrees should do it)
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  #3784  
Old 05-25-2013, 09:18 PM
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Micronaut Micronaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
I'm not at all disagreeing that overall airspeed has an effect on the turn and fade of a disc. Like I said above, I'm not an aerodynamic expert so I'm not going to try to argue on how spin does or doesn't contribute to the lift on the two sides of a disc. Every bit of my experience (and everything I've read from everyone other poster who claims to understand the physics) says that spin stabilizes a disc and that more spin helps a disc minimize both turn and fade. If you believe the hype on MVP discs, that's exactly what they claim. Their discs by keeping as much weight to the outside as possible allow the disc to keep it's rotation longer. That allows those discs to have a straight flight without a lot of turn, and a forward fade rather than a hard crash like you'd get out of most discs with good high speed stability.

Your point about a fighter pilot is irrelevant to a situation where the only control a thrower has is at the launch, but even so I don't disagree that more experience and better technique let you do those things that newer players can't. If you pay attention, the vast majority of technique advice is geared toward increasing the spin you put on the disc.
I too am not an expert, but I know what I know. People talk about increasing spin because spin generates lift, and keeps disc flying longer as long as they don't fade out. And part of that is high speed turn counteracting fade to keep discs flying longer. Spin causes lift because it generates a certain amount of relative wind around the entire circumference of the disc. So if there was no linear momentum, their would be no lift differential from left to right. I mean, there would be no left and right because there would be no forward or backward to relate it to. But when there is linear momentum, the angular momentum interacts with it resulting in a lift differential, and that is how it causes turn and fade. The aerodynamics determine how much turn and fade you get and at what point in the flight path. MVP Claims that by placing the greatest amount of mass on the edge of the disc they increase the moment of inertia, thus allowing the disc greater angular momentum (spin). I haven't thrown MVP plastic, so I can't draw on personal experience to evaluate this statement. But it makes sense. However, MVP readily states on its web site that angular momentum is only part of the equation, and that "...linear and angular momentum and aerodynamics act upon each other simultaneously...". Other brands of discs without MVP's "GYRO Technology" still have varying degrees of turn and fade. So it stands to reason that when MVP designs their discs, they take into account the more substantial amount and duration of turn that would result from an increased moment of inertia. For example, if they wanted to make a reasonably neutral flying disc like the Anode, they might design the aerodynamics of the disc such that it would be more high speed overstable to counteract the effects of additional spin, resulting in the net effect of a more neutral flight pattern. As for the disc being more resistant to change in spacial orientation due to gyroscopic stabilization, I think that makes sense too. But it doesn't negate the aerodynamic effects that come into play from the changes in relative wind that result from spin. Exactly how that balances out and changes (improves?) the performance of MVP discs vs. others is something I'd like to experiment with and study further sometime. But for the moment, I was speaking in general about all discs, not MVPs in particular.
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  #3785  
Old 05-25-2013, 09:32 PM
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Micronaut Micronaut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullethead326 View Post
Hey, to clarify--

I agree that I didn't explain that fully. My goal was to explain as simply as I could the most dominant mechanisms for imparting two characteristics of disc flight, since it was on a thread where I basically assumed minimal knowledge of throwing and physics. The most complete explanation requires a free-body diagram with an analysis of precession and centers of lift and rotation. However, it is far easier to see the effect of linear velocity on lift than it is the effect of angular velocity on lift. (Source: a couple engineering degrees should do it)
You're right, and I wasn't trying to criticize your write-up. Just responding to Mashnut's use of your quote, and trying to explain where your analysis and mine agree and differ.
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  #3786  
Old 05-29-2013, 03:52 PM
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techn9cian4life techn9cian4life is offline
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How much you think it would cost to ship a Fade Tourney + Phenix Quads? It's not exactly a stupid or "noob" question, but figured I'd ask here instead of making a thread about it.
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  #3787  
Old 05-29-2013, 03:54 PM
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spikodelhyzer spikodelhyzer is offline
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Just use the USPS calculator

http://postcalc.usps.com/
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  #3788  
Old 05-29-2013, 04:10 PM
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techn9cian4life techn9cian4life is offline
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Figured I can probably jus use the biggest flat rate envelope.
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  #3789  
Old 05-29-2013, 04:38 PM
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knettles knettles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
One minor thing I'd change in there is that more spin does not cause more turn, whether or not it's into a headwind. The more spin you put on a disc, the more resistant it will be to both fade and turn, the spin acts to keep the disc from changing angles similarly to a gyroscope.
Sorry, but Mashnut is right. More speed causes turn. That's why a pro can throw a putter 500' without it going into a roller. Because they know how to put the perfect amount of spin on a disc. And conversely, why amateurs trying to drive a putter will often turn and burn it. Because they're not good at applying snap/spin on a disc.
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  #3790  
Old 05-29-2013, 05:21 PM
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spikodelhyzer spikodelhyzer is offline
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You can spin/snap the piss out of a disc as long as you keep your form clean. Ams can't throw a putter 300' without rolling it because they have major breakdowns in the form trying to throw that hard and do things like roll their wrist or OAT.
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