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Old 01-13-2011, 02:53 PM
Hegemony Hegemony is offline
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Noob questions - Discing down, RHFH, form costistency

This is my first post to this site, so hello!

Some friends have recently gotten me into disc golf. which is good. But they did it right before winter kicked in, which is bad as I've now got the bug but the weather hasn't been cooperative. We've been snowed in in Atlanta for a few days now, so I've been scouring the internet learning about disc flight paths, form techniques, etc. I've found the FAQ's and sticky threads on the larger forums to be very insightful. However, since I'm so new to this there appear to be some common knowledge items that I don't understand that are not covered in the typical threads.

I drive RHFH. It feels more natural to me for now and I've got a little more control. I'm practicing up a RHBH as well, but the hyzer path for a RHFH plays easier on my home course.

I've definitely got beginner consistency issues, as I've only played a whopping 3 rounds. I have been driving with a Teebird at the recommendation of a local pro. However, I've thrown a few other discs in the field just to try them out. To give you guys an example of my power on good throws I've pushed a Beast out to the 320-350 range with good S curves when released flat and it ends up basically straight from my initial trajectory line with a slight fade on the end. I lucked into great hyzer flip once with the Teebird and got about 330 out of it. That was really cool. Normal distance out of the Teebird is 280-300ish on good throws with little run up (a baby x-step at most. Usually standing throws.)

Given that I know I need to work on consistency and I don't think I'm throwing the Beast as far as I should be even when it feels good, I've decided to limit myself to just a couple of molds and really just work my form until I'm comfortable with my accuracy. I've read a lot on this forum about "discing down" which seems similar to what I'm trying to do, though in my case I'd have to call it "limited mold startup."

Rather long winded introduction, but hopefully it's good background for the questions I have...

1) I see a lot of recommendation for sidearm/FH thowers to use overstable discs. What I haven't seen is a good explanation of why that is (though I definitely see it's value in my own throwing.) I saw one description of low spin generated by a FH throw having an impact on the flight pattern, but I'm also wondering if there's some relation to "power throwers." I'm not really sure if that's a term for guys who muscle it or guys can throw for big distance with good form, but they usually recommend the same discs for both groups. I've thrown a Leopard a number of times with mild-to-moderate hyzer on release and it turns right over into a roller with anything close to a full power throw. That could be OAT, which is the whole point of:

2) Discing down. How low can you go with a FH throw? I've tried throwing my Aviar putters in the yard and the disc is so deep that my fingers catch the lip on release causing flutter, roll over, and 70-80ft throws. The only way I can see releasing the putter correctly is to do a weird wrist twist down during the snap to change the angle of my fingers in relation to the disk. Doesn't seem productive as I doubt I'd do that with a driver or even a mid that wasn't as deep. Am I doing it wrong or should I just go down to mids for drives and up shots or stick to the Teebird since I'm RHFH?
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2011, 03:28 PM
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medicinalfunk medicinalfunk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
I've only played a whopping 3 rounds.

I've pushed a Beast out to the 320-350 range
well, it sounds to me like you are on your way to being the michael jordan of disc golf
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:42 PM
Hegemony Hegemony is offline
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my buddies all call me "the natural" but trust me, you guys have nothing to worry about. My putting sucks just like any other noob's and drive shots like that are a very low percentage (like 15-20%) at the moment. I don't have consistent control yet at all, release is inconsistent, etc.

I haven't put the time in yet, but I'm trying to get some understanding under my belt so that I don't build bad habits while putting the time in.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:54 PM
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aPfaff aPfaff is offline
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1. once you get really good with driving FH then the understable discs and some stable discs will turn over really fast. So by using an overstable disc it wont turn over and will go straighter.

2. FHing with a putter will usually turn over as you said but if you slow it way down it can be pretty acuurate. I'd not force my putter but it is better to have alot of shots in your bag.

I don't know if I helped you or I'm talking nonscence but that's my advice.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:58 PM
Hegemony Hegemony is offline
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That's what I've noticed, I'm wondering if anyone knows why. There's so much technical analysis of the BH throw, I was hoping someone had at least some cursory knowledge of what's going on with FH throws and why they turn over so easily.

On the putters specifically, it's kind of an "Am I doing this wrong or am I trying to do something that I shouldn't?" question.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:06 PM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
1) I see a lot of recommendation for sidearm/FH thowers to use overstable discs. What I haven't seen is a good explanation of why that is (though I definitely see it's value in my own throwing.) I saw one description of low spin generated by a FH throw having an impact on the flight pattern, but I'm also wondering if there's some relation to "power throwers." I'm not really sure if that's a term for guys who muscle it or guys can throw for big distance with good form, but they usually recommend the same discs for both groups. I've thrown a Leopard a number of times with mild-to-moderate hyzer on release and it turns right over into a roller with anything close to a full power throw. That could be OAT, which is the whole point of:
Here's some reasons why beginners and vets alike prefer overstable and wide-rimmed drivers for FH. The overstability and fast speed of then help mask the nefarious OAT. With FH, it's a lot easier to put more torque, both good and bad, on the disc for n00bs than it is BH which has more moving parts. The wide rim is really just nice and comfy with a FH grip, they fit a lot more snug with those long, flat rims than a narrower driver do. I FH maybe 25% of my round when the line calls explicitly for it or I'm stuck in schule on the left and I find that a happy medium works best for me, in that I like a disc that's overstable and fast enough that it'll mask a little OAT while being slow and stable enough that it keeps me honest and it gives me a versatile flightpath. For me that disc is a beat to hell Star Starfire. YMMV.

Quote:
2) Discing down. How low can you go with a FH throw? I've tried throwing my Aviar putters in the yard and the disc is so deep that my fingers catch the lip on release causing flutter, roll over, and 70-80ft throws. The only way I can see releasing the putter correctly is to do a weird wrist twist down during the snap to change the angle of my fingers in relation to the disk. Doesn't seem productive as I doubt I'd do that with a driver or even a mid that wasn't as deep. Am I doing it wrong or should I just go down to mids for drives and up shots or stick to the Teebird since I'm RHFH?
You can FH anything you set your little heart to, even putters and superclass lids. Once you start dabbling below your typical fairway driver range of Teebirds and Eagles, the discs start to become very unforgiving of OAT and require smooth snap, especially mids with their large diameters and putters with their deep rims.

Check out some FH vids and the Hammer pound drills and learn to do the hammer pound in FH.

Oh, and welcome to the site hombre!
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:13 PM
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ArcheType ArcheType is offline
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yeah, watch guys play ultimate, they can fh that giant lid, you can disc down as slow as you have patience for
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:27 PM
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CwAlbino CwAlbino is offline
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First off don't go overstable. It just masks form flaws and is bad for your progression. Working with the teebird and also trying more understable discs will help. The teebird and the beast are two exceptional forehand discs and if you don't take to a brand preference, they should stay in your bag as a forehand. You can drop down to a mid at most but really anything lower and it just gets way too sensitive. You can work on form and especially follow throw at low speeds with mids rather than putters. Forehands just naturally turn things over easier, but the way it's set up you really don't need to drive putters. With forehands you can power down on drivers and mids so much easier than backhand. Learning a quick flick for putters can still put it to 200'+, without hardly any arm movement at all. Anything past that is just fine with mid/driver.

edit: to make a correction. Forehanding putters is a good learning tool, but it's far different forehanding a putter than backhanding one. Getting comfortable with mids then learning the putters is the best way to do it imo. The difference for most would be that of a disc golfer who has never thrown a lid, playing a round only with a lid. That would be closest to forehanding a putter for the first time.

Here's my writeup on forehands

Quote:
Originally Posted by CwAlbino
Grip: Usually a 2 finger or single finger grip, This really changes how you will release the disc.

Single finger (what I use):



2 Finger:


Avery Jenkins power grip:


Release angle: This goes hand in hand with the grip, and I've found is the leading cause of OAT (off axis torque) for forehand players. The difference between a good forehand player, and a not so good forehand player, is control of the release angle. Hold the disc with each grip and the hold the disc out at the release point and notice how your arm is positioned for the disc to be flat for each grip type. The single finger and Avery grip are close to each other, with the palm being almost perpendicular to the flight plate, while the 2 finger grip is almost parallel with the disc.

Most will "roll their shoulder" when throwing a forehand. To show what I mean best, hold a disc flat with a single finger grip, then keep your arm at the same position, but change the grip to a 2 finger grip. The disc is now positioned more at an angle, and not flat. This is why you really need to watch the release angle depending on the grip, at the time of release, it needs to stay on the same plane as the pull.

Pull: I go with a bent elbow pull. The idea is the same as backhand, get the disc to move straight, not in a circular pattern. From the reachback to the "hit" you should be throwing in a relatively straight line.

Hit: One of the most looked over, yet simple parts of a forehand. I believe the hit is far easier on a forehand than a backhand, but is also the most problematic due to angle issues. I find it easiest (with a single finger grip) to point to my target. Simple right? Pull straight, point to the target. Smooth, with acceleration at the end.

Follow Through:You shouldn't be following through in a rotating fashion like backhand, forehand follow-throughs are forward with little to no rotation (A full power shot is hard not to, but for control, no rotation). My shoulders will end up on the same line as my arm for the point (hit)

Runup: If you already know the X step it's pretty easy to convert to a forehand X step. For RHFH:
1. Left foot forward for a "closed" baseball stance
2. Right foot behind for the X, I do more of a hop however without really passing the right foot behind the left.
3. Left foot goes to a "open" baseball stance and the body pivots to where the chest is forward

Last edited by CwAlbino; 01-13-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:46 PM
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jtbingster jtbingster is offline
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I throw FH quite a bit, and when I approach with a putter or most mids, I use a split finger grip. I put my middle finger in the rim of the disc, and my index finger on the bottom of the flight plate, pointing towards the middle of the disc. At least in my opinion, that gives me more feel for the disc and for my shot, and when I approach or drive with a putter I'm more concerned about that than having lots of power. I also slow things down quite a lot. With putters and mids, even if you slow things down and don't put a ton of snap on it, you can still get good power and great control by keeping everything smooth.

Hope that helps some with one of your questions!

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  #10  
Old 01-13-2011, 06:02 PM
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Bubbajoe Bubbajoe is offline
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Let me ask a noob question here. Assuming a 300' drive, how much of a rip is there in a FH vs a BH? Does the disc push off you finger tips? Or does it eject from i between your thumb and fingers? A little of both? Im hopless past 150' or so FH and just recently have looked to improve.
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