Noob questions - Discing down, RHFH, form costistency

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by CwAlbino

I would also suggest to any forehander, get a Champion Teebird.

My best FH disc is a slightly beat star teebird.

I've actually switched to RHBH for most drives now because I got frustrated with OAT on mids and putters FH.

I'm having a weird phenomenon in field practice where my Makos and Aviars are flying straight and landing within 10-20' of one another in the 180-230' range. Max height is about 20ft on the throw, if memory serves.

[Bubbajoe]

Originally Posted by SteelerRX

That makes sense, thanks. I'm still learning the lingo, what is OAT?

Off Axis Torque. The most common problem with any throw, FH or BH. I've learned in this thread for the FH it's most commonly caused by wrist roll at the hit. It's also common enough were many players will throw overstable plastic FH to help mask/compensate for it.

[CwAlbino]

Originally Posted by SteelerRX

That makes sense, thanks. I'm still learning the lingo, what is OAT?

Off axis torque. It's any force on the disc that is not in line with the trajectory or spin of the disc. So if you were to pull the disc across your body, and at the end turn your wrist over, so as to move the wing up or down, that would be the biggest cause of OAT. In this gif it's just pitching back and forth (was a very rudimentary gif, might end up making a better one sometime). This is the biggest sign of oat, and is the basic principle. Any motion that would cause pitch back and forth.

Originally Posted by Hegemony

My best FH disc is a slightly beat star teebird.

I've actually switched to RHBH for most drives now because I got frustrated with OAT on mids and putters FH.

I'm having a weird phenomenon in field practice where my Makos and Aviars are flying straight and landing within 10-20' of one another in the 180-230' range. Max height is about 20ft on the throw, if memory serves.

I've never thrown a star teebird, but from what I've seen of others throwing it, it's a little less overstable at the start. And of course will wear faster. I would see no problem in someone getting a star over a champion, just preference.


If this phenomenon is backhand:
Throw them higher for distance. Focus on the hit and slow smooth acceleration. The mako should be flipping over at long distance, and depending on the aviar it won't flip at all (big bead driving aviar). This will just come with playing around with flight height and when it will turn over on you.

If it's forehand:
You are probably throwing too hard. One thing I've found out is I cannot throw my mids and putters hard with a forehand. I have to slow my armspeed waaaay down and focus on the spin. The main difference between forehand and backhand is that forehand's speed is much higher in comparison to the spin of the disc. Speed = use of faster discs, spin = glide and how far it glides. Since most forehanders don't have as much spin, they go to the overstable discs and faster discs. Higher speed in a ratio over spin of the disc is what causes turn, and just adds to the oat monkey forehanders that use all fast overstable discs.

Pull out your mako, or if you have a buzzz, use that. Do a bunch of practice standstill throws with them, and maybe even your aviar. Don't throw hard, start out at low speed and focus on the hit, which is where you will get your spin. A nice clean flick at the end will produce enough spin to keep the disc stable during the flight without turning over. If the speed is too low that it's fading out, dial up the speed a bit. By continuing this process you can find the speed that works for you on a forehand until you can achieve a higher spin.

[Hegemony]

The "same-distance" phenomenon is back hand. I've been doing standing right pec throws with a one-step 90 degree hip/shoulder turn. I start facing away from the target and take one step with my right foot to open up to where my shoulders are on the throwing line.

If I raise the height, the wind catches it and it hyzers into the ground. It's like it's going out there and just dying at the end. i.e. it seems like there's just no power to get it out further.

Occasionally (like 20-30% of the time,) I'll get the Mako out to 240-250. However, it seems like I should be getting a lot more distance off of it compared to the Aviars. I'm using Putt and Approach Aviars, not the drivers. Leopards and Teebirds aren't going much further than the Mako's most of the time. I think I hit 300' once in 250ish throws on Saturday with a Teebird (all backhand.) I was throwing my whole bag back and forth across the field.

Weird thing is, I actually heard my thump snapping against my fingers as the disk ripped out on some of these throws. Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems like the disc should be going a lot further given that the discs are flying straight and the snapping sound. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

I went to a new park on Sunday and there's a DG shop right across the street, so I picked up a Buzzz while I was there so I could try it out. I think I need to find someone local who can critique what I'm doing and show me what I'm not seeing.

[Bubbajoe]

It sounds to me like you're throwing nose up. When you're doing the right pec drill focus on a flat, level release. Dont concern your self with hight at all. If you're seeing any of the hot stamp you're almost certainly nose up.
If this is the case focus on your wrist angle. If you opened your hand and extended your fingers out straight as you were about to drive they should be pointing down as if you were about to shake some ones hand.
The snap you heard was your fingers smacking the base of your thumb, not your thumb itself. Not that it makes any difference that is. ;p

[CwAlbino]

Originally Posted by Hegemony

The "same-distance" phenomenon is back hand. I've been doing standing right pec throws with a one-step 90 degree hip/shoulder turn. I start facing away from the target and take one step with my right foot to open up to where my shoulders are on the throwing line.

If I raise the height, the wind catches it and it hyzers into the ground. It's like it's going out there and just dying at the end. i.e. it seems like there's just no power to get it out further.

Occasionally (like 20-30% of the time,) I'll get the Mako out to 240-250. However, it seems like I should be getting a lot more distance off of it compared to the Aviars. I'm using Putt and Approach Aviars, not the drivers. Leopards and Teebirds aren't going much further than the Mako's most of the time. I think I hit 300' once in 250ish throws on Saturday with a Teebird (all backhand.) I was throwing my whole bag back and forth across the field.

Weird thing is, I actually heard my thump snapping against my fingers as the disk ripped out on some of these throws. Based on what I've read on this forum, it seems like the disc should be going a lot further given that the discs are flying straight and the snapping sound. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

I went to a new park on Sunday and there's a DG shop right across the street, so I picked up a Buzzz while I was there so I could try it out. I think I need to find someone local who can critique what I'm doing and show me what I'm not seeing.

Originally Posted by Bubbajoe

It sounds to me like you're throwing nose up. When you're doing the right pec drill focus on a flat, level release. Dont concern your self with hight at all. If you're seeing any of the hot stamp you're almost certainly nose up.
If this is the case focus on your wrist angle. If you opened your hand and extended your fingers out straight as you were about to drive they should be pointing down as if you were about to shake some ones hand.
The snap you heard was your fingers smacking the base of your thumb, not your thumb itself. Not that it makes any difference that is. ;p

Yes, probably nose up. Also, the sound doesn't have to do with snap. It probably means you are pressing down with your thumb instead of gripping with your hole hand. Could also account for nose up.


Make sure your fingers make the pivot point and that you are gripping firmly with all fingers. Read this:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...t=22984&page=3

[djjeremiahj]

\/ the post here is amazing \/
http://dgcoursereview.com/forums/sho...01&postcount=8

\/ a good video here\/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvmePaqMFcQ

here are a few things i've learned...

1) You cant hold the disc (in your hand) hard enough. In driving, most hold it too lose and it "flutters" like a "lame duck" on release. as was imparted to me... "hold it flat and hard like you're a waiter with a million dollar wine glass on your tray."

2) Too much snap? Doesnt exist.... the harder you snap the more control you get.

2a) Throw Too hard? Cant do it.... Flipping over a distance disc, either go faster or more overstable.

3) Power is generated from the hip, release should be *almost* level and vertical to the hip. This way you "push through the hip" on drive and bomb.
I always remind people that the throw "is like a shortstop throwing to first on the run... he's low and has to use a lot of body torque... it's not like a baseball pitcher... it's like the submariner."

4) Disc must be FLAT or anhyzer on release. When i throw, i visualize myself throwing and i remind myself to lower my body, keep my arm flat, and throw hard. "Stay low, throw flat, throw hard." i say to myself every time.

5) FH discs will fly exactly like their BH counterparts if throw properly. They will controllably turnover, "s" curve and hyzer....

6) Disc Selection makes a huge difference.

**** This works for power drives. A standing power flick is a completely different set of rules.

I would, however, recommend an elbow brace if you plan on using this throw powerfully and often. This type of throw is hard on the body, and a simple elbow sleeve can help a lot in minimizing damage and pain (esp. the next day). (knee braces too)

[CwAlbino]

Originally Posted by djjeremiahj

\/ the post here is amazing \/
http://dgcoursereview.com/forums/sho...01&postcount=8

here are a few things i've learned...

1) You cant hold the disc (in your hand) hard enough. In driving, most hold it too lose and it "flutters" like a "lame duck" on release. as was imparted to me... "hold it flat and hard like you're a waiter with a million dollar wine glass on your tray."

2) Too much snap? Doesnt exist.... the harder you snap the more control you get.

2a) Throw Too hard? Cant do it.... Flipping over a distance disc, either go faster or more overstable.

3) Power is generated from the hip, release should be *almost* level and vertical to the hip. This way you "push through the hip" on drive and bomb.
I always remind people that the throw "is like a shortstop throwing to first on the run... he's low and has to use a lot of body torque... it's not like a baseball pitcher... it's like the submariner."

4) Disc must be FLAT or anhyzer on release. When i throw, i visualize myself throwing and i remind myself to lower my body, keep my arm flat, and throw hard. "Stay low, throw flat, throw hard." i say to myself every time.

5) FH discs will fly exactly like their BH counterparts if throw properly. They will controllably turnover, "s" curve and hyzer....

6) Disc Selection makes a huge difference.

**** This works for power drives. A standing power flick is a completely different set of rules.

I would, however, recommend an elbow brace if you plan on using this throw powerfully and often. This type of throw is hard on the body, and a simple elbow sleeve can help a lot in minimizing damage and pain (esp. the next day). (knee braces too)

This kind of throw:

-Is not useful for hyzers, just straight shots that fade.
-Isn't good for touch shots
-Is very hard on the joints (mainly elbow) and is one of the reasons most will say forehanding is bad for your body
-Causes substantial OAT
-Restricts distance by not allowing for a full reachback and follow through (which is also harder on the body)
-Restricts the discs you throw to fast overstable drivers.



I've seen quite a few that throw this way, and they loved grooves. If that says anything to the users on this forum.

[djjeremiahj]

HUH?

Originally Posted by CwAlbino

This kind of throw:

-Is not useful for hyzers, just straight shots that fade. I have full control... up to 420'... Hook and "S" curves.
-Isn't good for touch shots - Totally different throw and body mechanics.
-Is very hard on the joints (mainly elbow) and is one of the reasons most will say forehanding is bad for your body - Are you throwing for distance or control? All of the forehand guys i play with use this method. I'm the only "old man" who needs the arm brace. I'm the worst FH of the group. When done properly, it's seemingly effortless. You're misunderstanding, the "power" doesnt come through the elbow to wrist whip, it comes pushing from the shoulder, through the hip into the snap. The only complaint i've ever heard was "i think i gave myself carpal tunnel"..."you snap that hard?"..."yeah".
-Causes substantial OAT - ? huh? the disc comes out perfectly flat.
-Restricts distance by not allowing for a full reachback and follow through (which is also harder on the body) - the only difference between this throw and any other is that your arm must be lower, you dip down to get the power and step into it. The rest of the "windup" is the same.
-Restricts the discs you throw to fast overstable drivers. - No... it just restricts you to using discs as they are intended. My Teebird is laser straight for 300'. My Destroyer turns over and crashes like any other backhand.. I use an Xcal for long straight hooks. If i throw flat footed (no windup) as you suggest, i can throw up to ~325'. But if i need more distance i have to use more power and drive through the hip.

I've seen quite a few that throw this way, and they loved grooves. If that says anything to the users on this forum.

i throw -
171 Destroyer - Slight turnover max D.
171 Xcal - Hyzer / Hook
169 Star Destroyer - "Controlled" partial sidearm (like you suggest).
170 Champ Teebird - Straight Control (like a BH Teebird) up to 300'
170 Champ Rhyno. - Any FH up to 225'.

I am equally as well sidearm as i am backhand.

see blue above

CwAlbino


Now that i really look at your words... i see you've described the power flick i use..... i must recant. (many apologies)

awesome write up.... btw.

[CwAlbino]

I'll go a little more indepth with each, and ty.

Originally Posted by djjeremiahj

\/ the post here is amazing \/
http://dgcoursereview.com/forums/sho...01&postcount=8

\/ a good video here\/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvmePaqMFcQ

here are a few things i've learned...

1) You cant hold the disc (in your hand) hard enough. In driving, most hold it too lose and it "flutters" like a "lame duck" on release. as was imparted to me... "hold it flat and hard like you're a waiter with a million dollar wine glass on your tray." The problem isn't in how hard you grip it, but in where you grip it. I don't grip my forehands really hard at all, and I'm still capable of smooth and far throws. Keeping the pivot point and a relatively loose grip until the hit allows for a much cleaner throw. Power gripping it the entire time won't be as good for a smooth pull and that whip like snap at the end. By having the disc loose and your wrist not completely tight, it acts more like a rubber band than stiff lever. More snap is more spin, more spin is more glide, more distance.

2) Too much snap? Doesnt exist.... the harder you snap the more control you get. No complaints

2a) Throw Too hard? Cant do it.... Flipping over a distance disc, either go faster or more overstable. You can ALWAYS throw too hard. As in backhand, smooth is far. Unless you are throwing like a monarch or something, going faster and more overstable is not always the best decision. Changing the angle of hyzer, and sometimes cleaning up oat are ways to fix this. I throw Destroyers as my distance disc, if I flip it over I'm not going to go to an XCal. Something I can't flip, or even keep straight. Having clean OAT free throws will make XCals and Forces too overstable to be thrown flat and for them to remain flat. Just as most say Comets are understable, when they really are not. My main complaint here is that this is too general. Might be ok if you are talking about an AvengerSS that you are throwing for distance, but want it to hyzer.

3) Power is generated from the hip, release should be *almost* level and vertical to the hip. This way you "push through the hip" on drive and bomb.
I always remind people that the throw "is like a shortstop throwing to first on the run... he's low and has to use a lot of body torque... it's not like a baseball pitcher... it's like the submariner."yes, power is generated from the body. There are better ways to transfer that energy though than by keeping your arm so tight and putting so much torque on the elbow. I like to use shoulder rotation, and a more lever arm "swedish style" than anything. It's easier on the arm and provides the torque needed. I can go more into that below, outside of this quote.

4) Disc must be FLAT or anhyzer on release. When i throw, i visualize myself throwing and i remind myself to lower my body, keep my arm flat, and throw hard. "Stay low, throw flat, throw hard." i say to myself every time.If you have to release falt or with anhyzer, you will never be able to throw a pure hyzer. Or hyzer flips. Or spike hyzers.

5) FH discs will fly exactly like their BH counterparts if thrown properly. They will controllably turnover, "s" curve and hyzer....yes

6) Disc Selection makes a huge difference.Just like backhand. yes.

**** This works for power drives. A standing power flick is a completely different set of rules.

I would, however, recommend an elbow brace if you plan on using this throw powerfully and often. This type of throw is hard on the body, and a simple elbow sleeve can help a lot in minimizing damage and pain (esp. the next day). (knee braces too)

**What I mean by Swedish Style. In regards to my full power distance throws or pure hyzers.

Rather than getting low and keeping the elbow in, for my full power distance drives I go more swede style. First off watch this video of Linus throwing to get an idea of backhand swedish. Watch his torso and shoulders. How they go almost perpendicular to the ground and rotate on a completely different plane than most throws.
(1:44, 2:54, 4:07) (Feldberg's throws are also somewhat lever style but not nearly as dramatic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KSmCjlG0wY

When I release, my torso is not straight | |, it's angled so that my shoulders can get over each other and my body over the disc. More like this / /. I can pull the disc far back for a complete reachback and then let it follow the rotation of my shoulders down and around then through. Hopefully when I get a good video camera, and there's not a blizzard outside, I can make a video of myself forehanding. Words just sometimes aren't enough.