#11  
Old 04-01-2011, 08:46 PM
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hewittdallas hewittdallas is offline
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Originally Posted by smyith View Post
a buzzz is not overstable in D or X by any means and are great for beginners. the right dx roc is good for beginners but if they get one of those overstable beauties then its bad.

notice he says slightly overstable. you want a beginner to be able to work a mid in all conditions. midranges teach disc golf fundamentals quickly. garublador mentions all "neutral" mids imo. to sit there and list them would be unnecessary.
I think we can all agree that a Buzzz is not overstable, especially in the D and X plastics. As for the Roc, if you are new to the game, you are going to have a hard time knowing exactly which one to buy if the goal is to get the less stable ones. Again, I'm not saying these discs shouldn't be in a players first bag, because I really believe they should.

My question was more related to the value of a "less stable" mid. It would be difficult for him to list them all out, but some of the ones in the few he mentioned are very, very different discs (e.g. Roc vs Element). Since the putter and mid will have such a big impact on the development of the player and their form/technique, it just seems to make sense that they have a couple different tools to learn with.

And maybe I am just way off base here, but I really believe a Fuse or Comet (for example) would have helped me shake a lot of bad habits early on. These molds taught me how to throw correctly, and still do for that matter. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Buzzz, but it is way more forgiving and thus, not as good of a teacher.

I guess what I'm getting at is do you think having two molds in the mid slot would be acceptable in the first bag? If someone would have handed me a Wizard, Fuse, and Buzzz when I just started, I feel like I could have shaved a couple months off the learning curve.
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  #12  
Old 04-01-2011, 10:18 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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2 midrange molds is more of a 2nd or 3rd stage bag addition
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  #13  
Old 04-02-2011, 09:04 AM
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jtbingster jtbingster is offline
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I think we need to sticky this thread...
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  #14  
Old 04-04-2011, 11:04 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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I'll concede that there are advantages with going less overstable with the putters and mids than the ones I suggested. It's why I made sure to make those articles "required reading." My approach is a bit more "hard core" than some, but my thought is that it will take a while to get a lot of the technique stuff anyway and that time can be spent beating the discs in. By the time you're getting good at controlling release angle and have any idea of how to eliminate/control OAT your discs will be a bit beat up and neutral. I also think that learning to play the fade is important. Fade is your friend if you know how to deal with it properly.

I honestly doubt it will make a big difference either way, but pointing out the differences and philosophies of why you might pick one over the other is an excellent addition to this thread and method.

I'm standing by my one putter and one mid rule, though. Doing more with fewer discs is the most important thing building your bag this way will teach. We're just nit picking on which ones to pick. The beauty is that if you do it all right, it won't matter which ones you picked.
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Old 04-04-2011, 02:31 PM
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Is a putter always a putter or just the name it was given?

I generally only want to putt with a single putter but am carrying another for driving and approaches. found out pretty quick that no matter where I place that on the upshot, I don't want to putt with it because just the difference in carry affected how high/low I would pitch at the basket.
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  #16  
Old 04-04-2011, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
Is a putter always a putter or just the name it was given?

I generally only want to putt with a single putter but am carrying another for driving and approaches. found out pretty quick that no matter where I place that on the upshot, I don't want to putt with it because just the difference in carry affected how high/low I would pitch at the basket.
putter is a putter is a putter at 10', but at 20'+ is were you notice difference, which also depends on personal style.
it is very common in advanced bags to have 2-3 putters for varying uses. but in a stage 1 or 2 bag its not necessary or very good for skill building.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:04 PM
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hewittdallas hewittdallas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
I'll concede that there are advantages with going less overstable with the putters and mids than the ones I suggested. It's why I made sure to make those articles "required reading." My approach is a bit more "hard core" than some, but my thought is that it will take a while to get a lot of the technique stuff anyway and that time can be spent beating the discs in. By the time you're getting good at controlling release angle and have any idea of how to eliminate/control OAT your discs will be a bit beat up and neutral. I also think that learning to play the fade is important. Fade is your friend if you know how to deal with it properly.

I honestly doubt it will make a big difference either way, but pointing out the differences and philosophies of why you might pick one over the other is an excellent addition to this thread and method.

I'm standing by my one putter and one mid rule, though. Doing more with fewer discs is the most important thing building your bag this way will teach. We're just nit picking on which ones to pick. The beauty is that if you do it all right, it won't matter which ones you picked.
These are some great thoughts in addition to your original post! I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just curious. Since I pretty much had to relearn everything I ever knew about disc golf last year, much of the challenges of initial disc selection are still fresh in my mind.

I really like your explanation behind the choice of a more stable mid. However, if most new players are anything like me when I started, there is a good chance they will lose their mid before they sufficiently beat it in unless they play a very safe course. In fact, one of my biggest challenges early on was learning a disc and then losing it.

Again, I completely agree with everything you said. I just know that things seldom work the way we intend in this very imperfect world.
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  #18  
Old 04-05-2011, 09:48 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hewittdallas View Post
I really like your explanation behind the choice of a more stable mid. However, if most new players are anything like me when I started, there is a good chance they will lose their mid before they sufficiently beat it in unless they play a very safe course. In fact, one of my biggest challenges early on was learning a disc and then losing it.
That is a great point, and also a really good argument for buying baseline plastic, which is, IMO, more important than which slightly overstable to neutral mid you pick.

I found that I lost more discs after I learned to throw farther. It doesn't matter how inaccurate you are at 200', the discs just can't get that far away from you. It wasn't until I was at 320' or so before I really started to lose them.
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  #19  
Old 04-05-2011, 09:53 AM
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Technohic Technohic is offline
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lol I just said to my one buddy the other day when I drove the 346' hole and he was commenting on it; (I know, not a big deal to some people, but for me and who I normally disc with, that's pretty far) and I told him that it just means when I have my wild throws that the disc will be even harder to find as I am able to throw deeper into woods.
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  #20  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
That is a great point, and also a really good argument for buying baseline plastic, which is, IMO, more important than which slightly overstable to neutral mid you pick.

I found that I lost more discs after I learned to throw farther. It doesn't matter how inaccurate you are at 200', the discs just can't get that far away from you. It wasn't until I was at 320' or so before I really started to lose them.
I want to stress here the importance of baseline plastics as well. A 165-170g ProD or X Buzzz would be fine for someone to start off with. If you take the DGR views to heart the baseline plastics will more naturally teach you certain things better without you even knowing it. I can't tell you how much my form and game have improved by getting rid of Star, Champ, and Z plastics.

Lets take a look at weight for a second. I don't want it to be a big topic but I think that people should consider starting lower than 175g on any disc they buy. Not that they should go right to 150 class but you will have an easier time transitioning from strong arming to "smothing" the disc with lighter ones. There are other reasons but I don't want this to be an argumentative point but just a mindset that we should consider advising.

I personally though want to push for an understable/stable mid such as an X Comet. The reason being that as a person learns Comets will tell them more about their form than anything else. Hyzer angle, snap, oat, nose angle, arm speed and subtle settings of motion in your timing. This isn't a I'm a fan of this disc so I push it thing it is a I have seen the benefits because I took the advice of others who have seen the benefits. So I highly encourage an X (not Z) Comet and would ask for a reconsideration of it.

(p.s. I think it could be good to advise an understable mid like a comet or wolf to start out with and then after a couple of weeks go pick up a Roc, Buzzz, Shark, whatever.)
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