#21  
Old 04-05-2011, 12:21 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfair View Post
Lets take a look at weight for a second. I don't want it to be a big topic but I think that people should consider starting lower than 175g on any disc they buy. Not that they should go right to 150 class but you will have an easier time transitioning from strong arming to "smothing" the disc with lighter ones. There are other reasons but I don't want this to be an argumentative point but just a mindset that we should consider advising.
weight is VERY important for a few discs. drivers should be light to start off (150g is ok but as long as you dont get into the 170s youll be fine). mids and putters i do not agree with 150g class for most players, main reason is that mids and putters are much more sensitive in the wind then their heavier counterparts. i dont think they should go max weight but around the 170 area would probably be best, makes the disc much more workable

Quote:
(p.s. I think it could be good to advise an understable mid like a comet or wolf to start out with and then after a couple of weeks go pick up a Roc, Buzzz, Shark, whatever.)
NO, that defeats the point of building youre bag along with your game/skill set. advancing that fast will only hurt yourself.
understable mids like the ones you suggest will not be beneficial to a newer player. this is a first driver mentality, they should be more understable. the mids and putters should be stable to slighlty overstable, they are much more useful and will improve form better than an understable version.
understable mids will produce one MAJOR bad habit, and thats heavy hyzer angle release. i know a few people with this problem (they will not listen to me or the several local pros...). stable mids will develop flat smooth release and help players to learn how angle can change the flight. understable mids are limited in the variety of shots they can accomplish were as stable mids have almost no limits.
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2011, 04:24 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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i cant believe this thread died so easily, theres alot of good stuff in hear and was an interesting convo
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2011, 05:08 PM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smyith View Post
i cant believe this thread died so easily, theres alot of good stuff in hear and was an interesting convo
It's sort of what I expected. People would rather have their bags looked at individually. Mostly I did it to perform my due diligence in this forum. I can't say I didn't try.
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2011, 05:54 PM
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jenb jenb is offline
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I have a question about the first driver (e.g., dx gazelle, etc.). Does the Dx Leopard fit in this category, or is it too understable compared to the gazelle?

I can see how the overstable disc helps beginners deal with strong headwinds, but without an understable disc, how are they supposed to deal with strong tailwinds?

The 30+ mph tailwinds eat my roc alive just as quickly as the 30 mph headwinds, so I carry a stingray to use at least until my roc beats in. Am I doing it wrong, or am I supposed to just avoid windplay until my roc and driver get beat enough to handle strong tailwinds (I'd have to take most of the year off in Texas if that's the case).
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  #25  
Old 04-14-2011, 09:54 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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I am no pro, but IMO you can do harm in carrying an under stable disc for tailwinds or for simply learning hyzer flips. A flippy driver wouldn't hurt either.
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  #26  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:11 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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adding multiple drivers is all fine and dandy in a 'second stage' bag but i would think for the first driver something straight and stable will be more versatile. i would go cheetah before id go leopard, but only for the first driver.
you dont need an understable disc for tailwinds. a stable disc will serve just fine. it may not go as far with the same ease but it will develop release consistency. when i first started playing i read Climo's old website (he is the best after all so whose advice could be better). On it he said that beginners should focus on throwing flat and straight. basically learning a flat consistent release.
honestly a cheetah or gazelle can diagnose bad form almost as well as a leopard. and with the development direction of discs today i would say building your form around stable plastic is far more favorable than understable. plus, using a leopard to diagnose your form flaws is more of an later stage tactic for improvement.
i think one thing to consider is that it is very likely that a beginner player will lose or toss aside their first driver quickly and will probably buy the next step up (i.e. teebird, eagle, xl, etc.).

**Note** when i say stable i mean it rides flat, straight, neutral, etc.
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  #27  
Old 04-14-2011, 10:13 PM
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liamxparker liamxparker is offline
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@garublador, thanks. this was very helpful, and will save me some change.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2011, 10:10 AM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smyith View Post
honestly a cheetah or gazelle can diagnose bad form almost as well as a leopard.
I'd say that the Cheetah might actually be better at diagnosing form problems than a Leopard. The Leopard might not let you know the difference between a more powerful throw and one with more OAT because it's designed to flip. The Cheetah will turn a bit more but go way farther on a more powerful throw and just flip more with OAT. The Leopard might just flip and crash either way.

Another important thing to consider with the Leopard, especially in DX, is the lack fade. Learning to play the fade is important in disc golf. You get a lot of predictability out of the fade. The Cheetah (and Polaris LS) has that fade, but is also relatively high speed understable, so it's both easy to throw for beginners and predictable.

If you need results right away, carrying something understable for really strong tailwinds might be necessary, but I agree that you'll learn more by forcing a few discs to fly well in those situations. A 30 MPH wind is difficult for many people to deal with and the more tools you have the better off you'll be. If you find that doing that sucks then add the understable discs until what you have beats up. It's probably not that big of a deal.

I tried to make this method a bit ambiguous as far as what specifically to carry because as long as you follow the general guidelines and get the specific recommendations right, a lot of it doesn't matter nearly as much. There are probably a dozen or so fairway drivers, mids and putters that will all work just about as well and arguing about which specific one to use, while fun, is probably splitting hairs. I don't want to tell people they need to buy new discs to get better, but the closer you can get to ideal the better off you might be.

Plus, it's difficult to make it too specific because people will start off at and progress differently. Someone with the goal of hitting 320' might stick with DX Cheetahs forever. Someone who's already hitting 350' but wants to reevaluate their game might find they get too understable too quickly and would be happier with a D Cyclone or DX Eagle-X. Someone might have an X Tracker sitting around and doesn't want to buy a new disc so they can use that. Variety is part of the fun of the sport and I don't want to take that away. Fortunately there are enough discs that fit my descriptions (not high end plastic, easy to control with some fade) that you can have that variety and use discs conducive to learning.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2011, 06:53 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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very good point about the cheetah vs leopard
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2011, 02:34 AM
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Mongo97 Mongo97 is offline
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Very helpful thread Garublador, thank you. IMHO, this thread has been one of the better constructed pieces that describes both the "what" and the "why" without being a pitch for specific discs.

One question from a beginner's perspective (and despite my 'years played', my actual playing time has been less than that and I'm firmly in the beginner phase trying to get out) is about one specific suggestion in the "beginner's pack" you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Original post truncated and sans disk names:
Your goal as a beginner is to both improve technique and line shaping. Start with this:

Putter - 1 mold, preferably a stable, in most cases beaded putter in low end plastic that isn't flexible

Mid - 1 mold, neutral to slightly overstable

Driver* - 1 mold, slow, low end plastic, with some turn and some fade

Overstable Driver - 1 mold, overstable by design, not because of speed
The part I'm wondering about is the overstable driver.

I do own a few that would fit that category, but have yet to try to work any of them in as a 'regular' member of the bag.

How beneficial is it for a beginner to work an overstable driver in to the mix at that stage, especially if the arm strength/speed may not be up to the disc's specs?

I'm also curious about your thought behind having two drivers in the bag at that stage, when there's plenty of discussion out there about having a more minimal disc selection to start with and "building up" to slightly overstable drivers, then building up to the discs where the flight path drawing looks like a U turn.
This 'bag', obviously, is a different approach, and I'm just wondering why you recommend this approach as compared to others.
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