#11  
Old 10-23-2011, 11:28 PM
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Danger Danger is offline
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There is a movement to separate pros and ams?

Poppycock!
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  #12  
Old 10-23-2011, 11:48 PM
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optidiscic optidiscic is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger View Post
There is a movement to separate pros and ams?

Poppycock!
I am not gonna win this argument online....gold courses should punish mistakes which AMs make.....that is either horrific OOB (USDGC), unforgiving off the fairway (NEVIN), or abuse for missed putts (Renny). All of these elements do one thing...they force AMs like me to play like a pansy and lay-up and play safe and I end up either playing safe bogey golf or go for it mistake ridden bogey golf. Every hole should be beyond my ability by close to a full stroke.....whether that averages out to a 3.5 or a 4.5 or a 2.5 is irrelevant. I will be exposed on a gold level course. Why not design it so the gold level players ssa is closer to tweener as possible to make for an interesting round. On the holes where half the gold guys get 3s and the others get 4s you have a great divide and the Ams will get 4s and 5s on this hole.....I don't see the logic in making SSA as close to a whole number as possible....boring zzzzzzzzzzzz....means most of the golds get a 3 and most of the ams get a 4......whats that do for making a round exciting?
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:02 AM
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jongoff09 jongoff09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optidiscic View Post
I strive to make holes that are closer to 2.5 or 3.5 than 2 or 3. These are much better holes IMO than the standard 3s and 4s. A true deuce or die hole (2.5) which is the bane of many disc golfers is actually a better hole than a true par 3 or 4 as it demands you execute......many true par 4s actually suck as you can easily recover and scoring remains stagnant even if the golf is exciting.
A course with a bunch of 2.5, 3.5,4.5,or 5.5 holes will see scoring swings and make for exciting disc golf both when playing solo or in a competitive situation.
Years ago there was a movement to make all holes an even SSA 3,4, or 5 for open players.....what a dumb idea as most players will score the same and the rounds are not as wild or fun. I seem to be in the minority of people who prefer tweeners but its what I am striving for during my design.
I can agree with this because of how putting is in DG. Putting is pretty easy, so making a 3 on an "easy" par 3 should be because of a missed putt, not because everyone makes a 3 because it is an easy drive followed by an easy up shot that sets up a short putt. I compare it to ball golf, where par is assigned as how many strokes it should take to get to the green +2 for putts. Because of how tough it is to putt in ball golf, that makes the average for a typical par 3, 4, or 5 right around par. In DG, that would make the average for the hole probably right in between because of how many 1 putts there would be.

I hope that makes sense
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:07 AM
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Moify Moify is offline
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I'm glad I stumbled upon this post. I just happened to be talking about this topic to a friend a few days ago...

There's a hole at Castle Hayne in Wilmington, NC (hole #8) which runs about 75ft out, then leads to a hard, 90 degree left turn. The entire hole is 700 feet long, most of which lies after this radical turn early in the hole.

I say, if holes must be "tweeners," and they are fun, then at least make sure the gnarly turn in the course doesn't lie 50ft from the tee. At least make it a mid-range shot in the beginning. As far as the purpose of the hole regarding AM/Pro competition, I agree with optidistic:

"The course should not separate the AMS from the Pros....the course should make for exciting battles between pros and exciting battles between ams."

It's all about fun for me. But I can dig those who get into the competitive side of things.

Last edited by Moify; 10-24-2011 at 02:09 AM.
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  #15  
Old 10-24-2011, 08:56 AM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Don't confuse scoring spread with scoring average. The ideal hole has a scoring average near integer par numbers 3, 4, 5 AND good scoring spread for a particular skill level where less than 70% shoot the par score AND the scoring spread is not artificially produced by "lucky" pinball fairways or TOO punitive hazards (not no hazards). However, typically more open terrain doesn't make it easy to average round par numbers AND have sufficient scoring spread for a skill level. Too many players (>70%) shoot "par" if the average is near par. In that case, the easiest and most effective "fix" to improve scoring spread is to make the hole longer or shorter to get the average in the par +/- 0.2-0.4 range, not 0.5 (tweener). Statistically, each 30 feet change in length raises/lowers the score 0.1 in scoring average.

Given a choice, more open holes that average 0.2-0.4 less than par for a skill level are more fun and allow the top 1/3 of the players who are playing well and likely to win/cash to separate from the field. More open holes that average 0.2-0.4 over par will also separate the field. However, these holes are more frustrating because par is the best score most can aspire to (birdies less than 10%) and the goal is to avoid bogey although statistically around 1/3 will get them.

Tweeners on more open holes with scoring average 0.4-0.5 over/under par for a skill level will separate scores, but not necessarily as ideally as those at 0.2-0.4 below par, but may be more fun than those 0.2-0.4 over par. And from a game design standpoint, tweener scoring average is the farthest from par, regardless the method used to set it, making it more confusing.

Last edited by Cgkdisc; 10-24-2011 at 08:59 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-24-2011, 09:09 AM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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Castle Hayne

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moify View Post
I'm glad I stumbled upon this post. I just happened to be talking about this topic to a friend a few days ago...

There's a hole at Castle Hayne in Wilmington, NC (hole #8) which runs about 75ft out, then leads to a hard, 90 degree left turn. The entire hole is 700 feet long, most of which lies after this radical turn early in the hole.

I say, if holes must be "tweeners," and they are fun, then at least make sure the gnarly turn in the course doesn't lie 50ft from the tee. At least make it a mid-range shot in the beginning. As far as the purpose of the hole regarding AM/Pro competition, I agree with optidistic:

"The course should not separate the AMS from the Pros....the course should make for exciting battles between pros and exciting battles between ams."

It's all about fun for me. But I can dig those who get into the competitive side of things.

I just played that hole last week. It isn't really a 90 degree turn. And it is farther out than 75'. I threw a pretty stable Opto River on that tee. It is slightly uphill, and I got about 225' out of my drive the first time I played it. I ended up with a 4 on the hole. I shanked the drive a little on my second round, for about a 150' throw. But, I still managed to save a par on the hole. That tee just requires a nice sweeping tee shot. If you're good, I'd bet you could get 300' off the tee there. I can't, but someone with a decent arm and control could. It's a fair, challenging hole. Just hard. You can't get a birdie and screw up that tee shot.
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  #17  
Old 10-24-2011, 09:09 AM
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Brall Brall is offline
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tweeners are great for us lowely rec players because even a rec player can have that insanely lucky 340' drive that somehow makes it by every single tree... giving you the end result of a score that even pro's would have a tough time getting.

of course, the opposite end of that spectrum is that 95% of the time you get a 5 instead of that lucky 3.
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  #18  
Old 10-24-2011, 09:11 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Personally, I enjoy playing x.3 holes---at least a few on a course. I like the challenge of saving par, even if I can't birdie. (Funny, people who don't like holes that average 3.3 or 4.3 often like those that average 2.3, because they're considered Par-3s and so they get a lot of "birdies").

Even a few tweeners, x.5, on a course aren't bad. They're holes that are certain to affect my round, whichever side of the average I fall on.

But the advantage to the x.0s is that the scoring spread is more like to be 3 different scores (birdie, par, bogey) rather than 2 different scores, as in the other examples.

I say, don't hate the tweeners, and give me a mix of scoring averages. Because the tweener for one skill level might be the birdie hole for another (or the "tough-par" hole for me).
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  #19  
Old 10-24-2011, 09:33 AM
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Smigles Smigles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom12003 View Post
220 ft to a 90 degree turn for another 200 ft or so--no way for the big guns to reach on their drive.
I hate this.

Make it very hard, make it almost impossible, but I want a line at the basket on anything under 500 feet.

Yes, placement shots are great and all, and yes, I am happy about a 3 on a par 4. But when my distance allows it, I feel cheated everytime when there is absolutely NO way to the basket and that is by design.
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  #20  
Old 10-24-2011, 09:39 AM
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nic777 nic777 is offline
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Interesting. I think our course design down here leaves a lot to be desired. The majority of holes here are 130m with a open line to the hole , birdie opportunities for the big arms , lay up for a par for the rest of us. Yawn.
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