#121  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:18 PM
Peterb Peterb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcal View Post
You should want to be a worse putter. After all, a terrible putt that misses the basket completely has less chance of rolling away that a good putt that misses by a fraction of an inch.



A handicap system evens the field, not a course design. Never mind the fact that something as random as rollaways could just as likely spread the field rather than even it.



Golf courses aren't supposed to mimic life, they are supposed to test golf skills. At the end of the day the best golf should be rewarded with the best scores.

Sloped greens present a good test of golf skills but if done incorrectly they result in random rollaways. Therefore, the design should incorporate other features to minimize chance results: a reasonable landing area, wood chips or the like around the base of the basket, obstacles to prevent long rollaways or some other innovation.
NORCAL I'm assuming you've played Dela. Plenty of sloped greens there with exposed roots and other items that create random roll-aways and such. Yet every pro I've ever spoken with speaks highly of the course. Napa, on the other hand, I'd agree with you.
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  #122  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:23 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
I assume your avatar correctly shows the new and improved configuration?
Well, if you saw the high-resolution version you'd see that the player is making the putt. Make the putt and rollaways aren't an issue.
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  #123  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:24 PM
The Miniac The Miniac is offline
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roll-away holes

Since one of the "signature" holes on one of my courses is being used as a poor example...I feel the need to respond.

1st, I don't believe I've ever taken "credit" for the design of that hole, though I did little to discourage that mode of thought as it was part of the course I oversaw. Brad Augsburger designed it and placed the basket on the tree. However, I felt that the hole was the type of arduous challenge that we were attempting to create and left it as it stood, primarily because of its uniqueness.

We addressed the roll-away factor by leaving the grass long for the am weekend, which allowed a well executed shot to have a much greater chance of sticking. The grass was mowed before the Pro weekend because, well, they're pros and should be able to either hit their mark or be smart enough to lay up short and get an upshot to rest near the top of the hill to set up the par putt. Granted, this hole did invite some bad luck because of the steepness of the hill. But the majority of the roll-aways were poorly executed, aggressive shots that either failed to go in or land softly enough to avoid the consequences of momentum.

As for my "complaint" about Pine Oaks having too many pins on mounds... Yes, I do feel that that feature is a bit over-used there and many other courses. You may wish to consider that #16 was the ONLY hole atop a mound at the Gran Canyon. Granted, there were a few pin positions on higher ground but no others on mounds.

The Gran Canyon disc golf course was blatantly billed as "Florida's Extreme Disc Golf Course", so it's not as if ANYONE didn't know what they were getting into. I believe that, anyone who looks at the other 26 holes would find safe & sufficient landing areas for nearly all of them.
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  #124  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:38 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I previously posted my approval of rollaway holes, but that Gran Canyon hole did have the fault of being almost impossible to lay up on. When we first built Stoney Hill #18 it had the same flaw; if the option to lay up is hardly any safer than going for it, something's wrong. With time and a great deal of effort, we fixed that issue (mostly).

I really like the concept of buncrs. Well, except the name. Especially the idea of having them near the basket, forcing a longer shot but no other penalty. I hope enough people try them that they eventually gain acceptance.
I thought the green on 18 at Stoney Hill was a great design, you definitely had the option to lay up with a reasonable chance of a good layup sticking, and great punishment for totally missing the basket if you go for it.
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  #125  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:50 PM
John Rock John Rock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Miniac View Post
Since one of the "signature" holes on one of my courses is being used as a poor example...I feel the need to respond.

1st, I don't believe I've ever taken "credit" for the design of that hole, though I did little to discourage that mode of thought as it was part of the course I oversaw. Brad Augsburger designed it and placed the basket on the tree. However, I felt that the hole was the type of arduous challenge that we were attempting to create and left it as it stood, primarily because of its uniqueness.

We addressed the roll-away factor by leaving the grass long for the am weekend, which allowed a well executed shot to have a much greater chance of sticking. The grass was mowed before the Pro weekend because, well, they're pros and should be able to either hit their mark or be smart enough to lay up short and get an upshot to rest near the top of the hill to set up the par putt. Granted, this hole did invite some bad luck because of the steepness of the hill. But the majority of the roll-aways were poorly executed, aggressive shots that either failed to go in or land softly enough to avoid the consequences of momentum.

As for my "complaint" about Pine Oaks having too many pins on mounds... Yes, I do feel that that feature is a bit over-used there and many other courses. You may wish to consider that #16 was the ONLY hole atop a mound at the Gran Canyon. Granted, there were a few pin positions on higher ground but no others on mounds.

The Gran Canyon disc golf course was blatantly billed as "Florida's Extreme Disc Golf Course", so it's not as if ANYONE didn't know what they were getting into. I believe that, anyone who looks at the other 26 holes would find safe & sufficient landing areas for nearly all of them.
Hi Greg! Long time no see.
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  #126  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:53 PM
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denny ritner denny ritner is offline
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Gregg, I'll take credit for smoking you out and seeing your # of posts increase by 33.3% in one day!

Love to hear more from you on this forum in the future. I know you've got plenty of experience and thoughts on design and other disc golf related topics and have a demonstrated ability to string some sentences together coherently.

I'd also encourage you (and Chuck) to post some more reviews
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  #127  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:53 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
I thought the green on 18 at Stoney Hill was a great design, you definitely had the option to lay up with a reasonable chance of a good layup sticking, and great punishment for totally missing the basket if you go for it.
Thanks.

Before we built the terrace around it and got grass to grow on the mound, it was extreme. A layup had a 50% chance of just sliding down the hill to the bottom, which was much further away than now, and a rollaway would have enough momentum by the time it reached bottom that it might go another 50'. The real lesson came on a very windy tournament, when you couldn't make a putt and couldn't lay up and, well, you needed fingers AND toes to add up your score.

Now you've got a good chance of your layup sticking, and rolloways often stop on the terrace for a should-make putt.
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  #128  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:14 PM
1978 1978 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyledstauffer View Post
Have you considered using plant material to make a "rough" that would cost players strokes? I'm thinking a very thick undergrowth of something thorny closely surrounding the hole on three sides such that a missed putt would likely wind up with a disc in the "rough" costing a stroke. (I'm a landscape architect, so plant material is the first thing to come to my mind!).

Also elevating the hole with a penalty, like a severe drop off, rough, or water feature on the other side would likely increase difficulty. Aiming higher should cause the disc to go farther on a miss.

p.s. not to thread jack, but I'd love to design courses...any idea how to get into that? I have two landscape design degrees and am looking for a job in the spring. Any help much appreciated!
Anything near a green that can be broken, stomped, or flattened will be. Keep that in mind when you intend on creating natural green protections, especially bushes or plants.
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  #129  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:21 PM
1978 1978 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Here is a concept that worked out really well design-wise and made the hole play extremely well. I have not seen it used elsewhere and it does make a challenging green.....but in combination with the entire hole design.

As you see here, it is a downhill hole with the basket sitting over a bank and it is behind a chainlink fence.



OB lurks long and also the entire length of the fairway on the right:



View from left of fairway:



The main challenge element of the green is when getting caught behind the chainlink fence and having a 30-40' downhill putt throwing over a chest-high fence (altered throwing motion).

I guess what I am proposing is basically the equivalent of a golf sand trap - a device that forces you to execute a different sort of shot to recover from a less-than-ideal upshot (or drive).

I have seen palmetto bushes in FL used in similar manner, but never in combination with terrain and OB.
What an terron;e hole. You play over a ball field and a football field. The "concept" if done in woods or an open field is debatable, but this is an terrible hole for a number of reasons. You never want to be playing over or near people or roads if you can help it.
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  #130  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:46 PM
jack straw jack straw is offline
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Don't be dissing the noodle hole and Cam Yards in general.
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