Designing Harder “GREENS”

[John Rock]

Seems like the "midnight landscapers" will just dispose of something like that. If players will complain about/cut out tree limbs that are "in MY way", those will not stand a chance no matter how cool they look.

[E_Rock25]

Dave242 - I say bring it on....

Guurn - I have played Byant a few times and really like what they have done out there. Some of the stuff is very expencive and may not be in the budget but we will be making some multi level greens like they have.

gripenemys2k - That green looks sweet it would be awesome if you could get some updated photos....

Steve West - Thanks for your input I really appreciate an established course designers prospective. I think we are going to try to evenly split the hard greens between the beginner and pro greens. If someone does not start trying to make greens more interesting for the pros they will continue to whine and jump putt at everything because they know they can make the come back putt. I think we sould try to change this mentality in the game and make the putting game as hard as Bolf by designing harder greens. I will not make greens that are so hard you can't hit a sweet one putt but I want it to be more of a rarity. Like I said in an earlier post I am sick of seeing pros in videos and live miss a 50' jump putt and then just tap in for par without even having to think about the putt.

Also Joe is not working on the Somerset course. I am helping him with the visuals and maps for the future Hudson course. I hope he will let me help with the install and design as well.

Scared_Discless - I like the BunCR idea and have seen it in videos as well as at Blue Ribbon Pines. I would like to find a way to make it look more natural than useing hay bails or yellow rope. I am thinking hedges or a ditch or rock garden all the way around the green.

drickanderson - That is a sweet looking tree. I found a cool tree on the property and we will be useing it for a green but it is going to have a little bit of a twist to it. I am going to do a design of that green next so stay tooned.

Thanks again everyone and keep the creativity flowing

[GripEnemyS2K]

ive been meaning to take pictures [of Tyler State Park, PA] to update for this site, i just havent been out on a sunny day since i said i would (like 2 weeks ago)...might be able to get out today and do it. when i do ill make sure to add it here! also, your pictures were plenty easy to understand and they look good to me

[Norcal]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

---Consequences of missed putts. Steep slopes, where even a putt that falls out of the chains may roll away.

Roll-aways are not a legitimate design element because they are too random. One disc may roll a few feet while another may roll 100' down a hill and behind a bush, leaving no chance for a comeback putt. Why punish a putt that hits the basket but misses and catches an edge? Golf is supposed to be a game of skill, not random chance. If anything, we should be looking for ways to prevent roll-aways from ever occurring around the basket.

[Cgkdisc]

Agreed.

[E_Rock25]

Originally Posted by Norcal

Roll-aways are not a legitimate design element because they are too random. One disc may roll a few feet while another may roll 100' down a hill and behind a bush, leaving no chance for a comeback putt. Why punish a putt that hits the basket but misses and catches an edge? Golf is supposed to be a game of skill, not random chance. If anything, we should be looking for ways to prevent roll-aways from ever occurring around the basket.

I disagree because a player must asume the risk or running that putt. Disc Golf like Bolf is a game of strategy & skill. If a roll away is possible a player must make a choice, go for it and risk the roll, or make a nice flat layup next to the basket for a drop in that has very little chance of rolling.

I do agree that rolls-aways are random but that does not make them a illegitimate design elements IMO. It gives the player more choices instade of just putting. This makes the game more interesting & harder. Disc golf is at least 50% mental probably much more than that. Almost anyone can get decent at thowing a disc but the players who make the right choices are the ones who will rise to the top.

[Royal Hill]

There has been some greenscaping efforts made in some of the nordic courses, usually seen by watching youtube vids by lgcm8 or zerocoolace. 18 at the Swedish Terminalen course has a mound/pond complex on a tourney 18 in a vid I believe for a scandanavian open that looked like a lot of earthmoving took place.

There's some pseudo island greens around Stockholm both at Jarva, and a well done one at Visattra. In one Zerocoolace vid you see it framed with logs and sanded, later in a summer vid you see the grass grown in. Not much topography shaping, but the shape of the defined green was the great part along with the pin position.

I even recently had the chance to play DelaVeage for the first time a few weeks ago, and all pins were still in Worlds configuration I believe. I duly noted that most pin locations themselves were not on slopes, but near slopes - some of which would be catastrophic for a forever roll.

[Cgkdisc]

It's not strategy if the factor is not an element that can be controlled by the player in the game. It's unfortunate that a slight miss that hits our target may be penalized more than a miss that actually misses the target due to increased likelihood of rollaways. However, that slight miss rollaway can be penalized less if the designer has barriers on the ground 10-20 feet from the basket to minimize the damage. If a player flies over those barriers on an upshot or approach, then fine. Those were "controllable" shot trajectories and if the shot flies down the hill or lands OB that's a legit risk/reward element. But efforts should be made to minimize rollaway damage when designing more elaborate landscaping around targets.

[E_Rock25]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

It's not strategy if the factor is not an element that can be controlled by the player in the game. It's unfortunate that a slight miss that hits our target may be penalized more than a miss that actually misses the target due to increased likelihood of rollaways. However, that slight miss rollaway can be penalized less if the designer has barriers on the ground 10-20 feet from the basket to minimize the damage. If a player flies over those barriers on an upshot or approach, then fine. Those were "controllable" shot trajectories and if the shot flies down the hill or lands OB that's a legit risk/reward element. But efforts should be made to minimize rollaway damage when designing more elaborate landscaping around targets.

In a way it can be controlled because players are aware of the bad kicks that a basket can hand out. I have seen a disc roll 30'+ on a flat green after and unfortunate miss. The disc shape is not going to change, which means roll-aways are always going to be part of the game and must be accounted for by the player. We may not be able to control when, and were a roll-away will ocure but we can take steps to minimize the chances of it happening. Which goes back to good decision making. You better know you can hit that 30'er if the basket is on a slope. Luck will always be a small part of any game. I have seen some bad putts that should not have gone in but did. I have seen a disc hit a tree 15' from the basket and get kicked in. Luck/chance goes both ways IMO and it is the players responsibility to account for it.

[Cgkdisc]

The problem comes in when you deliberately increase the existing fluke factor with design elements that will increase fluke percentages. If anything, the design elements should attempt to reduce or maintain the existing fluke factor percentages inherent in the game.