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  #81  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:06 PM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atay87 View Post
Hole #2 at Renaissance in Charlotte. The most risk/reward green I've played. It was cool to see, but from where I was, I had to lay up which is always boring.
I don't really see that as true risk/reward, as even if you are trying to play it reasonably risk free it can still punish you horribly. Risk/reward should be about punishing a gamble gone wrong. Not make every shot a gamble.
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  #82  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:12 PM
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E_Rock25 E_Rock25 is offline
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Bombmk - I too think that green went a bit too far. I could maybe be ok is the hole is only 150' and the only challenge is landing on the green but it does seem extreme.
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  #83  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:15 PM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Originally Posted by E_Rock25 View Post
Thumber - I have to agree with you but also see Chuck's point. It is a fine line. Like I said before though life isn't always fair.
But games should be. For games/competition to mean something it has to mean following the same rules and be a reasonably fair reflection of skill and mental ability. Knowingly adding elements that skew that due to a random nature that is reasonably unpredictable by the player is horrible design.

A player missing from 100 feet and a player missing from 10 feet should not be confronting the same risk on punishment, assuming their misses scale with distance.
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  #84  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:23 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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re: Rollaway greens

I may be biased because the two courses I play the most, and some of the other courses I like the most, feature this. But the way I see it---

If a basket's on a slope so that, say, 20% of missed putts will roll away to the point that it costs an additional stroke, I can judge my percentages of making the shot before going for it. It's not random or flukey, it's odds. Specifically, it's the odds that a bad shot (a missed putt) will have an extra penalty of rolling away. If I think the odds are against me, I can layup.

In the meantime, it adds a bit of anxiety to the game. Which is fun. This weekend I'll be playing a tournament at Timmons Park, and I'm already nervous about my putts.
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  #85  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:24 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhgonzo View Post
Here's how NOT to do it:


snip...
Being less than 150', your best shot is to overshoot the hole for a deuce, but landing short--and obviously "running at it"--pretty much guarantee a 3. While it's good to punish a bad shot by eliminating that comeback deuce, this is entirely the wrong way to do it IMO...and I hope the veteran designers involved in this discussion would agree with that assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tistoude View Post
Agreed. There is a course called Big Buckeye that has the same setup for hole #17 except using a Telephone Pole instead of the bush, and it is on a slope.
I tend to disagree. I do not see any picture of the Telephone Pole at Big Buckeye, but for short and routine holes without much challenge added in any way, having directional baskets is great.

Blocking the ace run is uncool IMO, but blocking off one side of the basket adds a requirement of accurate placement to an otherwise bland hole. And.....accuracy is a real disc golf skill, so directional baskets have their place. Using a bush or a tree or a phone pole to accomplish that is fine IMO.

I experimented with some tournaments I ran to add shields to one side of some baskets. I basically just hung a 1"x6" down the side of the basket. You could see them clearly from the tee on the holes they were used so you knew where the more challenging landing area was.....and if you were good, you did not land in that area.

With only a 5.5" shield, there was no place that you were completely blocked, but you did have to either straddle putt or hyzer/anhyzer putt if landing to the side of the shield.

Most people really did not like it, but when I pressed them to explain why, it was nothing more than "that's just not what I'm used to". Only a very few refused to see the strategic merit, but very few embraced it.

All that said, IMO that bush should be trimmed back a little.
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  #86  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atay87 View Post


Hole #2 at Renaissance in Charlotte. The most risk/reward green I've played. It was cool to see, but from where I was, I had to lay up which is always boring.

You can also see hole #18 in background which you have to throw across the ravine to get to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Rock25 View Post
Bombmk - I too think that green went a bit too far. I could maybe be ok is the hole is only 150' and the only challenge is landing on the green but it does seem extreme.
What you have to keep in mind is that this is a Gold level course. At 519', this is an easy Par-4 for Gold level players.....who routinely get to within 150' of this basket and are usually much closer than that. I have seen some of the big bombers get to within 20-40' short of the pin quite a few times.

So, the intention is to force risk/reward decision making coupled with good shot placement on an easy-ish upshot to get your birdie-3 (or eagle 2). If this was a 270-330' hole, it would not work nearly as well or be nearly as appropriate.

This demonstrates a really important design point that applies to this discussion: Good green design must be coupled appropriately with the entire hole design.....and for the player skill level the hole is designed for.
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  #87  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:45 PM
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Thumber Thumber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Big difference in the frequency an approach shot hits a basket versus a putt. Also, for an approach you're implying you're not trying to throw in the basket, but usually you're trying to sink a putt.
True, but the player needs to make some in the field decisions. Every 50 foot try is not the same.

If I am on flat ground, or downhill from the basket I am going to run it as the chances of a roll away are pretty low.

Put me 50 feet uphill and the strategy changes. I am likely to layup to avoid any chance of a roll-away (which could lead to the dreaded 3 putt)

My point is that I love sloped greens for the challenge and strategy they bring into the equation.

I have had 15 foot putts downhill that were terrifying. It forces the player to have perfect execution or pay a large price.
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  #88  
Old 11-02-2011, 03:54 PM
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E_Rock25 E_Rock25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombmk View Post
But games should be. For games/competition to mean something it has to mean following the same rules and be a reasonably fair reflection of skill and mental ability. Knowingly adding elements that skew that due to a random nature that is reasonably unpredictable by the player is horrible design.

A player missing from 100 feet and a player missing from 10 feet should not be confronting the same risk on punishment, assuming their misses scale with distance.
I think that some chance things that are unfair in games are a great teaching tool for children/young adults who don't understand how harsh life can be yet. This is what games and sports were originally intended for IMO. Teaching sportsmanship, cooperation, how to handel dissapointment and many other life lessions. I don't want to get to far off track with this thought but this concept seems to be lost in todays sports. It seems that it is more about winning instead of how you play the game.

Games and life are not always far nor should they be. Great life lessions can be learned from a bad/unlucky break. Even cheating (which I despise) is a teachable moment.

Back on track.... As far as the bush by the basket I think if it is any easy hole with no other obstructions it is ok (it does suck that it blocks the ace run) as long as it in not over done. It makes placing your shot very important and bad shots will be punished.
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  #89  
Old 11-02-2011, 04:00 PM
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E_Rock25 E_Rock25 is offline
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Dave242 - Thanks for describing the rest of the hole. I totaly understand that every piece of the hole must fit together to make the hole great. Moving a teepad 5' right or left can change a hole drastically just like taking down a singal tree in a fairway full of trees can alter the entire hole. Thanks for the description of the hole and the level of player the course is intended for. I just added it to my wish list.
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  #90  
Old 11-02-2011, 04:26 PM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
This demonstrates a really important design point that applies to this discussion: Good green design must be coupled appropriately with the entire hole design.....and for the player skill level the hole is designed for.
I can agree with that totally. And I understand putting the approach/long putt under pressure. But even a 6 feet putt, from someone who _did_ play it safe, that suffers one of the fluke pushouts we have all seen happen, would be prone to a punishment not fitting the crime by a long mile - on that particular configuration.
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