#881  
Old 04-12-2014, 12:55 AM
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jongoff09 jongoff09 is offline
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You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.
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  #882  
Old 04-12-2014, 07:26 PM
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SpringDgLover SpringDgLover is offline
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Originally Posted by eegor View Post
It wouldn't be a great hole if it was easy. I contend that it's fair. A good shot is rewarded. Taking away the risk would take away the challenge of the hole. Too many trees are cut down on disc golf courses in the name of "what should be".

Golf is a test of skill that requires distance, accuracy and touch. Courses that test these skills are the best courses.
You are forgetting luck, and it is a very important aspect of course design. The ratio of luck vs. skill must be measured and kept in check, the hole does not need the trees on the penisula to make it a good hole or even a more challenging hole. They are there to punish someone through "bad luck" which is my opinion a poor idea.
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  #883  
Old 04-12-2014, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongoff09 View Post
You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.
They did and thats fine, they got lucky my point is on a ratio of 10 shots how many times would that happen. The person who made the shot from way back executed a great shot, but that isnt the norm, nor does it account for a fair playing hole. The biggest mistake disc golfers make is they equate challenge to the old saying "Ive birdied that hole once". Yes you birdied it once, but most likely you did because luck was on your side. The idea is to make luck minimal and reward actual skill. That is good course design.
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  #884  
Old 04-12-2014, 11:10 PM
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jongoff09 jongoff09 is offline
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Originally Posted by SpringDgLover View Post
They did and thats fine, they got lucky my point is on a ratio of 10 shots how many times would that happen. The person who made the shot from way back executed a great shot, but that isnt the norm, nor does it account for a fair playing hole. The biggest mistake disc golfers make is they equate challenge to the old saying "Ive birdied that hole once". Yes you birdied it once, but most likely you did because luck was on your side. The idea is to make luck minimal and reward actual skill. That is good course design.
Haha, once? I only used my example because it was in a tourney and there was a pretty good headwind. Yes, it was from the short tee box (we both made 3s from there), but I would say that isn't the best angle to attack the hole from anyway. I'd rather be further left with my throw from the long. Have I made big #s on that hole? Yes, usually because I tried something I shouldn't have, but probably half the time I have made a 4 or 5 on it.

The group I was in at dubs took more throws on the short par-3 hole 6 than we did on 7 from the short. All 4 of us would have made a 4 on hole 6, and both teams had a 3 on hole 7 while one partner had secured a 4 and my partner was going to have a putt for 5. The team I played with in the afternoon also made a 3 on 7 that morning. They said it was windy when they played it too. Did you also know that it was raining, extremely muddy, and a little cool?

Last edited by jongoff09; 04-12-2014 at 11:14 PM.
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  #885  
Old 04-13-2014, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jongoff09 View Post
Haha, once? I only used my example because it was in a tourney and there was a pretty good headwind. Yes, it was from the short tee box (we both made 3s from there), but I would say that isn't the best angle to attack the hole from anyway. I'd rather be further left with my throw from the long. Have I made big #s on that hole? Yes, usually because I tried something I shouldn't have, but probably half the time I have made a 4 or 5 on it.

The group I was in at dubs took more throws on the short par-3 hole 6 than we did on 7 from the short. All 4 of us would have made a 4 on hole 6, and both teams had a 3 on hole 7 while one partner had secured a 4 and my partner was going to have a putt for 5. The team I played with in the afternoon also made a 3 on 7 that morning. They said it was windy when they played it too. Did you also know that it was raining, extremely muddy, and a little cool?

I think you misunderstand my argument, the hole is almost perfect, but the trees on that landing zone are completely unnecessary. They add an increased element of luck that cheapens the hole. I will agree that the box from the shorts is in the wrong spot that it needs to be more left.
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  #886  
Old 04-13-2014, 12:05 AM
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StuMagoo StuMagoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongoff09 View Post
You don't even have to hit the peninsula to have a look at the island on hole 7. At dubs last weekend I hit the peninsula even in the heavy headwind we had, and the people we were playing with didn't even come close. One of them turned a disc way over and was behind several of those trees, but he hit the island from there.
Failed to mention everyone at AWD played hole 7 from the short tee.
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  #887  
Old 04-13-2014, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by StuMagoo View Post
Failed to mention everyone at AWD played hole 7 from the short tee.
I did in my last post, and also mentioned that I don't think the short tee box is even the best place to try to place the drive from the long. I'd much rather be further left for the approach to the peninsula.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringDgLover View Post
I will agree that the box from the shorts is in the wrong spot that it needs to be more left.
I didn't say that. I think it is is great where it is at for red level players to have a par-5, I just mean that when throwing from the long, I would rather be further left after my drive.

Last edited by jongoff09; 04-13-2014 at 12:15 AM.
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  #888  
Old 04-13-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongoff09 View Post
I did in my last post, and also mentioned that I don't think the short tee box is even the best place to try to place the drive from the long. I'd much rather be further left for the approach to the peninsula.



I didn't say that. I think it is is great where it is at for red level players to have a par-5, I just mean that when throwing from the long, I would rather be further left after my drive.
Where its at now you are forcing "red level" players to either bail out way early, try to make the peninsula (with said dumb trees) or go past the peninsula and land somewhere to take a shot at the island. How is that making it a better par 5? Let me ask you this what element are the trees adding other then making a landing area smaller and increasing the likelihood of a bad kick?
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  #889  
Old 04-13-2014, 12:47 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by SpringDgLover View Post
You are forgetting luck, and it is a very important aspect of course design. The ratio of luck vs. skill must be measured and kept in check...
Spring, I agree with you 100% about the need to maximize the role of skill and to minimize the impact of luck. And I agree with a couple other things you said.

So here is how you completely eliminate the role of luck on that second shot on Lakeside #7: throw short of the trees.

End of story. If you throw into those trees, anything can happen. If you throw short of those trees, the problem is solved. Luck disappears.

I think you said at one point that the hole was otherwise "perfect." Let me explain why I think those trees make it "more perfect." When I'm done, you can agree or not; that's fine.

1. If you play just short of the trees and up against the water, you'll have an open shot of about 200' to the circle. Maybe even 200' to the pin, I forget.

2. The closer you are to those trees, the shorter your shot to the pin. That is the type of tension between risk and reward that I hope for. From the short tee to the "point" is about 340' and leaves you 200'. Or you can go for 320' and 220'. Or 300' and 240' or... whatever you're comfortable with. I think that makes the hole much better.

3. The closer you are to the water, the more open your shot is. The farther you are from the water, the more you'll have to go around those trees. That is a second layer of risk vs. reward, and it makes the hole much, much better. Without those trees, there would be no incentive to play close to the water. So the maximum skill -- getting closer to the trees and closer to the water -- gets the maximum reward.

4. We actually took out a couple trees to make some tight alleys, so that if someone did get stuck in or behind those trees, they would have the option to go for the island through a tight gap rather than laying up. It was actually an early PITTSBORO (sand trap).

5. If those trees weren't there, you could throw a shot that would leave you with 150' to the pin, and I didn't want that. I wanted that shot to the island to be at least 200'. That way, the hole requires more skill on the second shot and more skill on the third shot.

One more thing: We did open a route around all those trees for rec players who shouldn't be throwing 200' over water. You should be able to see that alley from the red tee, but you probably wouldn't see it from anywhere else on the fairway.

There are so many little details that go into creating a hole this complex, so I hope I was able to explain my thought process. It's really hard to get all these elements to work together, but I believe they all come together just about perfectly on Lakeside #7. If you think I'm still wrong, then we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Glad we agree on the other things.

Thanks,
John

Last edited by johnrhouck; 04-13-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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  #890  
Old 04-13-2014, 02:54 PM
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sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
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I obviously need to get to Selah so I can come on here and b*tch at John about something. My life just feels incomplete right now.
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