"NAGS" Zone (from DGR)

[Sadjo]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

I thank you for introducing the term. It's been helpful to us as well, especially when we designed a few holes that looked cool but weren't so hot when played, and we couldn't put our finger on why. They had NAGS, of course.

David....I think one of the problems with River Chase and Chattooga Bell Farm is too many NAGS. I wasn't involved with the design at River Chase....I just got Fly18 and the course together. I was, however, involved with CBF.

We've made some changes but with the wide openess of the farm and the parameters that we had to work with, I'm not sure we could have done much better. I know i'd like to give it a try.

[DavidSauls]

Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can do, with the land and parameters you're dealing with.

I haven't made Chattooga Belle yet, but I'm told by people I trust that I should; that its beauty offsets the over-openness in places. I still hope to get there.

I don't know what parameters were put on River Chase by the owners, or just the nature of co-existing with (ball) golf. But Reese's philosophy put an additional burden on the design. You're probably right that you end up with too many NAGS, though it's hard to tell when a hole is 1200 feet long and pretty open, what distance players will end up for their final approach shot.

One way to deal with NAGS is to design holes backwards. Find a basket location, figure out where the landing zone should be to have a fair and challenging non-NAGS approach, then figure out where the preceding lie should be so that good shots are hitting that landing zone.

[Sadjo]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can do, with the land and parameters you're dealing with.

I haven't made Chattooga Belle yet, but I'm told by people I trust that I should; that its beauty offsets the over-openness in places. I still hope to get there.

I don't know what parameters were put on River Chase by the owners, or just the nature of co-existing with (ball) golf. But Reese's philosophy put an additional burden on the design. You're probably right that you end up with too many NAGS, though it's hard to tell when a hole is 1200 feet long and pretty open, what distance players will end up for their final approach shot.

One way to deal with NAGS is to design holes backwards. Find a basket location, figure out where the landing zone should be to have a fair and challenging non-NAGS approach, then figure out where the preceding lie should be so that good shots are hitting that landing zone.

Chattooga Belle Farm may have the best views in SC. The fact pictures from the course have made the INNOVcalendar the last three years may be the proof you need to make the trip.

With River Chase i was dissappointed with the lack of using the areas with the trees. There are several areas that weren't even considered that would have added a lot of interest.

I've looked at holes backwards and redesigned but more for flow than NAGS.

[DavidSauls]

Originally Posted by Sadjo

Chattooga Belle Farm may have the best views in SC. The fact pictures from the course have made the INNOVcalendar the last three years may be the proof you need to make the trip.

With River Chase i was dissappointed with the lack of using the areas with the trees. There are several areas that weren't even considered that would have added a lot of interest.

I've looked at holes backwards and redesigned but more for flow than NAGS.

I didn't mean look at holes backwards---though that is a valuable technique---but design holes from the basket back towards the tee. It seems sometimes we find a great tee spot and initial fairway, then try to figure out where to put the basket.

One idea we had for River Chase, which I'll donate for free, knowing it's worth every penny, was in places to put the entire fairway on the outside of the cart path, between the path and woods, and make everything over the path (the primary golf fairway) O.B.

[Sadjo]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

I didn't mean look at holes backwards---though that is a valuable technique---but design holes from the basket back towards the tee. It seems sometimes we find a great tee spot and initial fairway, then try to figure out where to put the basket.

One idea we had for River Chase, which I'll donate for free, knowing it's worth every penny, was in places to put the entire fairway on the outside of the cart path, between the path and woods, and make everything over the path (the primary golf fairway) O.B.

I think of hole 2, 3, 9 and 13 all would be classic Disc Golf holes if that's the way the property was designed. There's also a nice area of woods between hole 2 and 3 and the 9th fairway. Service vehicles have some roads back there. Would be really nice.

[Sadjo]

I played more the past 4 days than any 4 day stretch in a couple of years. While playing I was keeping an eye open for NAGS. While playing Eagle Creek, a short pitch & putt nine-hole course, I noticed that for anyone not putting for a Duece on any hole other than #7 was most likely facing a NAGS situation. I'm not sure if much can be done with most of those holes given the property and lack of trees. While I could see making some changes, I couldn't see anyway to eliminate NAGS on that particular course without a complete redesign.

I also played Sertoma Field in Walhalla...my home course. It's a short course working its way into and out of some woods with a creek and several small waterfalls. I noticed for my boys (7 & 8) they faced several NAGS situations on the holes in the open positions where as if I did it was more of poor tee shot than poor design. Most of the pins are in areas where placement for lower level players play more of a role than seasoned players, but then its a red level course.

Right now I believe that when designing a course you need to considered the main skill level you'll attract and focus on not giving them too many NAGS while realizing you can't eliminate them for all skill levels all of the time.

I think it is easier or more likely to eliminate NAGS on courses with more wooded holes than courses that are more open. I also believe that elevation can help eliminate NAGS in some situations.

[Guurn]

This all seems a bit convoluted. So you are saying that people with the skill to throw 600' accurately and have equal skill at other shots shouldn't get holes catered for their level because it doesn't separate the also rans? Really this just seems shorsighted to me. On gold level courses I thought that was the goal, separation of the elite without real concern for the average gold guy. Also, as the sport grows' and more people play' the pool of people able to reach these holes will grow. If you have a course designed for the middle of the pack gold today, will it no longer be gold level in 10 years?

I get nags all too well for other skill levels. These are people without a complete arsenal.

[Sadjo]

Originally Posted by Guurn

This all seems a bit convoluted. So you are saying that people with the skill to throw 600' accurately and have equal skill at other shots shouldn't get holes catered for their level because it doesn't separate the also rans? Really this just seems shorsighted to me. On gold level courses I thought that was the goal, separation of the elite without real concern for the average gold guy. Also, as the sport grows' and more people play' the pool of people able to reach these holes will grow. If you have a course designed for the middle of the pack gold today, will it no longer be gold level in 10 years?

I get nags all too well for other skill levels. These are people without a complete arsenal.

I think you might be misunderstanding the point.

All I'm saying is seems it would be difficult to design a course that wouldn't end up with NAGS areas for at least some levels of players.

I'm not saying anything about one skill set not getting catered to, just saying it would be hard to not have a NAGS area for any skill set.