#21  
Old 05-13-2012, 03:44 PM
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jeverett jeverett is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
By "Foliage" and "Hilly"? You mean "Landscape" and "Terrain?"
I don't see where foliage actually appears on the course page. The landscape field only accounts for trees (i.e. lightly, moderately, heavily wooded), but IMO, it doesn't really desrcibe "foliage," per se.

I only point this out because while dense woods can be challenging, IMO dense brush is even moreso. If you hit a tree and bounce off the fairway on a heavily wooded hole that doesn't have a lot of brush, you can often find a recovery shot to get back on track, whereas landing in or near dense brush is usually tougher to recover from.
Ah yeah, I was thinking of the PDGA course par terminology.. yes, I should have said 'landscape' and 'terrain'. Yes, the measurement is definitely imprecise.. we're never going to be able to 100% estimate an actual SSA for a course layout, using only the limited information about each course found on the DGCR pages.. but the method is reasonably accurate for most courses. I haven't precisely matched the output of New013's method (the one used here) against actual known SSA's, but I'd expect the SSE's for just about all courses to be within +/- 2 of the 'real' SSA.. which once round rating estimates are done, will also mean those will be accurate to within roughly +/- 20 rating points. So, not *hugely* accurate.. although we did also propose a method of calibrating the DGCR SSE's against 'known' SSA and course length pairs. I don't know if Tim will implement that eventually or not, however.
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  #22  
Old 05-13-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
By "Foliage" and "Hilly"? You mean "Landscape" and "Terrain?"
I don't see where foliage actually appears on the course page. The landscape field only accounts for trees (i.e. lightly, moderately, heavily wooded), but IMO, it doesn't really desrcibe "foliage," per se.

I only point this out because while dense woods can be challenging, IMO dense brush is even moreso. If you hit a tree and bounce off the fairway on a heavily wooded hole that doesn't have a lot of brush, you can often find a recovery shot to get back on track, whereas landing in or near dense brush is usually tougher to recover from.
So what are you saying exactly? That there should be a distinction between not only the amount of trees in your way but the amount of brush in your way as well? Or that a moderately or lightly wooded course with a ton of brush is harder than a densely wooded course with low brush?

Obviously if a course has dense brush off the fairway it creates harder shots from out of it than a course with less brush. The problem with your theory is that you are trying to say that a 1000 rated round involves you going off the fairway a bunch.

My home course has really thick brush but it also has 50' wide fairways carved in to the woods. There are some really strategically placed trees in parts but for the most part if you go off the fairway it's because you threw a terrible drive. People that are throwing 1000 rated rounds aren't going in that brush and if they do it's not very often. If you're playing the course well you shouldn't even have to deal with that. So to say that well the fairways are pretty open but those woods are dense and make that an argument for the course being harder then we disagree.

Some densely wooded courses may have less brush but you have to throw a very accurate shot just to get down the fairway, forget about how dense the woods the are, the fairway itself is dense.

I don't want to knock kyflash but to say well there aren't many trees but the ones that are there are strategically placed is why you see so many courses that not properly listed. Just because there are some trees you have to go around doesn't mean the course is moderately wooded. On a moderately wooded course there are not only strategically placed trees but a bunch of trees that line the fairway, that's what my definition of moderately wooded is.

I don't see how you can take the term lightly wooded to mean there are basically no trees at all or that the trees aren't ever in your way; which is why I added the term Open/Mostly Open in my personal description of local courses so I could get better data. Lightly wooded means yeah it's wooded in parts and the trees are in your way but for the most part you're not dealing with a situation where every time you miss a fairway you're in the woods.

I can see the reasons why people hesitate to list a local course as lightly wooded or even want to list a course as dense and very hilly, several courses in my area were listed as moderate and I personally changed them because it just wasn't accurate. Once I changed them the SSE reflected a more accurate number. One of those courses has some real dense fairways in parts but half the course is very open so you have to take the entire course in to consideration. Just because 6 holes are moderately wooded doesn't mean the entire course is.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject, I know like 800 more people are going to complain that the SSE isn't right for their course and this is why I didn't want to get back in to this. You can't make everybody happy because you can't get every course right when you're using such a basic formula.
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Old 05-13-2012, 09:17 PM
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I find it helpful to think of how "wooded" a course is, more in terms of what the course does to ones score than how many trees there are or how thick the foliage is.

If there are several trees on a hole, it is highly likely that one would get the same score on that hole hole with a bad throw than on the same hole without any trees. So, that hole would be "open". Of course, a few strategically placed trees could make this less true.

If the hole will give one a bogey for missing your line around 1/3 to 2/3's of the time, then it is "moderately" wooded. Heavily "wooded" would be an almost certainty that a missed drive will result in a bogey (say, greater than 2/3's of the time).

Note that OB or other course features that have nothing to do with trees or foliage can bump a course into the heavily "wooded" category quickly even if there are only few trees around (think Winthrop Gold with the USDGC ropes).

The problem we have here is that a few big tees might provide a lot of shade....which is something I love about wooded courses in the summer!....but those trees do not make the course heavily wooded or probably even moderately wooded. IMO, we cannot expect everyone on DGCR to value scoring dynamics over shade. So, this will add to the imperfect science of the Scratch Scoring Estimates.

Oh...and timg - thanks for implementing this!
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:49 PM
chris deitzel chris deitzel is offline
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Just checked our 3 local course, Knob Hill, Moraine and Deer Lakes. All 3 of them are off by a few strokes.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:52 PM
chris deitzel chris deitzel is offline
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Moraine is off by about 7 strokes. A 66 from the blue tees always averages between 945 - 960. A 66 from the golds always comes in between 990-1010. Blue tees are off by 4 strokes and the golds are off by 7 strokes.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:26 AM
JoshEpoo JoshEpoo is offline
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Seems like it's been addressed already, but it's obvious this isn't going to be 100% accurate. The estimate is based on just a few factors.

I'll agree that the SSE's are pretty generous, but it's a neat feature.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:43 AM
chris deitzel chris deitzel is offline
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http://wayback.archive.org/web/query...0&start_page=1

This might help

or this

http://web.archive.org/web/200408070...ings/index.php

Last edited by chris deitzel; 05-14-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:45 AM
rocthecourse rocthecourse is offline
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My local course in the shorts has an SSE of 47. There was a tournament Saturday and a 47 in the first round would have been a 1008 and in the second round would have been 990. That's pretty freaking close.

What I find even cooler is that the old basic formula of SSE= (distance/285)+30 for this layout is 46.9.

Either way it is close enough for me.
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Old 05-14-2012, 01:50 AM
chris deitzel chris deitzel is offline
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http://web.archive.org/web/200310191...p?TournID=3545


digging up good stuff here!!!
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  #30  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocthecourse View Post
My local course in the shorts has an SSE of 47. There was a tournament Saturday and a 47 in the first round would have been a 1008 and in the second round would have been 990. That's pretty freaking close.

What I find even cooler is that the old basic formula of SSE= (distance/285)+30 for this layout is 46.9.

Either way it is close enough for me.
Well if the course is listed as moderately wooded we're still using that same formula, that's why it's the same.
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