#81  
Old 08-31-2012, 12:41 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
What if my goal is to aim at the splitter tree knowing at my skill level I'm not good enough to hit it, so for me, success/good shot is missing it on either side?
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Then I guess you're hoping to make a bad shot. So a bad shot becomes a good shot... wait...
Here is an example of how a skinny splitter tree thought process works.....and works well. In the picture below (Kilborne in Charlotte) the splitter trees are not really splitter trees for RHBH - they define the edge of the airway (for those with the arm to go for a biride - a straightforward hyzer). But, for me who is a LHBH player the 2 trees right in line with each other (one right behind the other just to the right of the square) is indeed a skinny splitter.

For me to reach the putting area I sometimes throw a line drive left of them, or I throw a S shot the right. I prefer the S shot as that produces more D and I need every inch of D as the putting range is my max D. I also know that my max D is achieved by routing my drive as close to the right of trees as possible.

In knowing my risks, I am pretty sure I can almost always recover for par if I hit the trees but do not bounce too far into the woods on the right (but deep bounces happen at least 1/3 of time I graze the trees). So, I use the first tree as a visual reference.....I essentially aim at the tree and hope to miss right.

If I miss badly left and go anywhere left of the trees, I am very going to get a 3 or a 4. If I hit the tree I am going to get a 3 or a 4. If I miss too far right, I am going to get a 3.

I have absolutely no issue at all with this skinny splitter tree. It would emasculate the hole if removed.



Reverse image to help visualization for RHBH throwers:

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  #82  
Old 08-31-2012, 01:30 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Now let's talk about the righty who can only reach the hole with an S-shot to the left of the skinny splitters.

Your argument is that if they miss just right of their line they will hit the tree and get stopped dead for a very long upshot - or worse: get kicked into the woods and get a 4. BUT, if they miss the trees right (as the result of an even worse shot), they will progress up the airway for a very easy recovery for par. The splitter tree is therefore not a fair punishment as worse errors are punished less than minor errors. I get that and agree with it.

The outcome then of that argument is that the tree should be removed. But, with the removal of the tree comes the removal of choices and risk/reward assessment. IMO, that is much worse than the unfairness thing just mentioned.

The idea of having wide splitter obstacles changes decisions from being subtle throwing/shaping choices to making entirely different throws. Removing this subtlety from the game is bad.

BTW, is the article online somewhere or so I have to buy the magazine and wait for it to arrive before reading it? I really want to read it!
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  #83  
Old 08-31-2012, 02:22 PM
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dscmn dscmn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
Then I guess you're hoping to make a bad shot. So a bad shot becomes a good shot... wait...
Hmm, I think the logic is more like: just to the left or right of that tree produces a great shot that has zero chance of missing the fairway and thus, producing a birdie. The thrower is still aiming at a 15' area with the middle foot being the one to miss. There's only one tree in the middle to miss while there are many to miss on the edges where all sorts of flukey kicks could occur.

It's more a fairway with a tree obstacle to avoid instead of two distinct fairways. There is a reason why so many folks end up hitting that splitter tree isn't there?

I don't have time to respond adequately to your other posts but I do appreciate your replies and I'll think about them for a little and respond later. I have to admit that I'm a minimizing luck (risk?) newbie.

Through the process of minimizing luck are other unintended consequences occurring? There seems to be less thought off the tee for the second diagram, no? Is there such a thing as disc golf course design blowback?
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  #84  
Old 08-31-2012, 02:24 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Your argument is that if they miss just right of their line they will hit the tree and get stopped dead for a very long upshot - or worse: get kicked into the woods and get a 4. BUT, if they miss the trees right (as the result of an even worse shot), they will progress up the airway for a very easy recovery for par. The splitter tree is therefore not a fair punishment as worse errors are punished less than minor errors. I get that and agree with it.
Hi, Dave. I assume when you say "your argument," you're talking to me. I'm glad we have agreement on that.

Quote:
The outcome then of that argument is that the tree should be removed.
I never said that. In fact, in the article I was very clear that I'm not looking for anyone (including me) to take out skinny splitters that are out there now. If it makes the hole worse overall -- even if it makes the hole more fair -- then you leave it.

My argument is simply that wider is better.

Quote:
But, with the removal of the tree comes the removal of choices and risk/reward assessment. IMO, that is much worse than the unfairness thing just mentioned.
Exactly.

Quote:
The idea of having wide splitter obstacles changes decisions from being subtle throwing/shaping choices to making entirely different throws.
No...

Quote:
Removing this subtlety from the game is bad.
Absolutely.

How about this as a concept. I'm not saying you can retrofit this hole, but if you could: Make that skinny splitter 4' wide instead of 6" wide (I'm just making up numbers here), and make the fairway 4' wider. Then you'd still be able to shape the shot the way you want, and the separation between your options becomes fairer. Does that work for you, or am I missing something?

Now, if you want solutions to existing holes, you don't remove trees, you plant trees. And maybe remove other trees. That will rarely be practical, and I'm not asking anyone to change their holes. I'm just saying that I used to design holes with skinny splitters, and now I really try not to. I urge other designers to do the same.

Quote:
BTW, is the article online somewhere or so I have to buy the magazine and wait for it to arrive before reading it? I really want to read it!
Want to join the PDGA?

Just this once, send me an e-mail, and I'll shoot over the version if have. jrhouck@houckdesign.com
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  #85  
Old 08-31-2012, 02:28 PM
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dscmn dscmn is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
BTW, is the article online somewhere or so I have to buy the magazine and wait for it to arrive before reading it? I really want to read it!
Membership has its privileges.

I bet I could photocopy it and send it to you in the mail in the time it would take me to figure out how to send it to you electronically.
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  #86  
Old 08-31-2012, 02:29 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by dscmn View Post
There seems to be less thought off the tee for the second diagram, no?
Yes. Irrelevant. Which hole is better is not an issue.

That's a completely different discussion. Worth having, but different.

Quote:
Is there such a thing as disc golf course design blowback?
Sorry, you'll have to explain that. Not sure what you mean.

Sadly, I'm about out of time, too. Please forgive me if I can't post the next two weeks. But if I can, I will.
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  #87  
Old 08-31-2012, 03:52 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Thanks for the offer to send the article (all my discretionary money goes to my kids and I try to support DG with my discretionary time and energy). Also, great point about not trying to retrofit courses with these concepts....I am glad to here that is clearly stated in the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
How about this as a concept. I'm not saying you can retrofit this hole, but if you could: Make that skinny splitter 4' wide instead of 6" wide (I'm just making up numbers here), and make the fairway 4' wider. Then you'd still be able to shape the shot the way you want, and the separation between your options becomes fairer. Does that work for you, or am I missing something?
I think what you are missing is that in this case (and plenty of others), the splitter is exactly in line with the ideal airspace. So the throw you want to make needs to come as near to the tree as possible. But, to keep from hitting the tree, you choose the airspace say 2-3' away from the tree to guardband the risk. In my mind at least, that is subtle shot shaping in choosing what side of the obstacle to throw..

Now, if you widen the obstacle that takes away the ideal airspace by 2' in each direction, now you have doubled the distance of the throw from the ideal line. It is so much less subtle that in essence it is a different throw.
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  #88  
Old 08-31-2012, 05:24 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Thanks for the offer to send the article (all my discretionary money goes to my kids and I try to support DG with my discretionary time and energy).
Good man. Say no more.
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  #89  
Old 09-02-2012, 06:38 PM
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ERicJ ERicJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Here is an example of how a skinny splitter tree thought process works.....and works well. In the picture below (Kilborne in Charlotte) the splitter trees are not really splitter trees for RHBH - they define the edge of the airway (for those with the arm to go for a biride - a straightforward hyzer). But, for me who is a LHBH player the 2 trees right in line with each other (one right behind the other just to the right of the square) is indeed a skinny splitter.

For me to reach the putting area I sometimes throw a line drive left of them, or I throw a S shot the right. I prefer the S shot as that produces more D and I need every inch of D as the putting range is my max D. I also know that my max D is achieved by routing my drive as close to the right of trees as possible.

In knowing my risks, I am pretty sure I can almost always recover for par if I hit the trees but do not bounce too far into the woods on the right (but deep bounces happen at least 1/3 of time I graze the trees). So, I use the first tree as a visual reference.....I essentially aim at the tree and hope to miss right.

If I miss badly left and go anywhere left of the trees, I am very going to get a 3 or a 4. If I hit the tree I am going to get a 3 or a 4. If I miss too far right, I am going to get a 3.

I have absolutely no issue at all with this skinny splitter tree. It would emasculate the hole if removed.



Reverse image to help visualization for RHBH throwers:

Bah! I took a 4 on that hole at Worlds because I hit that first "splitter" tree and took a nasty left side kick. Only one of 12 (out of 108) holes on which I threw a driver off the teebox.
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