#1  
Old 08-14-2012, 02:58 PM
patdb23 patdb23 is offline
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Holding an object behind your lie

The other day my drive landed in the front and at the base of a bushy tree. It was next to impossible to back into the bushy tree to establish a stance behind my lie without moving any branches. Finally I was able to place my foot behind the disc, held onto the trunk of the tree behind my lie and leaned forward without moving aside any branches and made my putt while also keeping balance.

The players on my card looked at me in disbelief, and stated I couldn't do it. I quickly pulled up QA16 from the Authoritive Rules Q & A, and read aloud:

Quote:
QA16: Using an Object Behind the Lie for Support
Q: Can I hold onto a branch or other object behind my lie while putting?
A: Holding on to something behind your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the object is in-bounds. It also must not be moved, since you are required to take the stance that results in the least movement of obstacles on the course. You are not allowed to hold onto another person for support, as that person is not part of the course.

Everytime I have followed this rule, I get the bombardment of players saying I can't do this. I find the fact that this rule is buried in the Q&A and not printed in the standard Rule Book very troublesome. Most average players are not even aware of the Rules Q&A, and I know of not one single certified official or TD that actually carries a copy of the Rules Q&A.

Is it time for the PDGA to include the 3rd part of our rules into the Rules/Competition manual?

A couple good questions came up in our group after I read the rule.

1) What if the object behind your lie extends in front of your lie? Say you hold onto a tree trunk that is clearly behind your lie, but the extension of the tree and it's branches overhang in front of your lie.

2)Is the tree considered one whole object?

If the entire tree in not considered one whole object, then my suggestion is the rule should be re-written to designate that a player can hold onto the part of an object that is behind your lie.
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2012, 03:07 PM
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bradharris bradharris is offline
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Most people I play with are familiar with that rule. I've never seen it actually used, but I have heard it mentioned as an option many times. However, I agree that having the Q&A separate makes it much harder to prove the rules on the fly. The answers should be incorporated into the official rulebook so that there is just one governing document.

I believe that an object extending in front of your lie is off limits for holding onto, however, the tree trunk is considered separate from its branches. I'm not 100% on that though.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:13 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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Though this situation is described in the Q&A, you could just ask those who think you're wrong to demonstrate where, in the actual rule book, it says you can't hold onto (or touch) a tree behind your lie. The burden is on them, and they won't find such a rule.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:14 PM
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jtreadwell jtreadwell is offline
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You can hold onto any part of the object that is behind your lie. However, the part saying the object can't be moved... does that mean no branches that move under your weight? That I'm not sure of.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:14 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradharris View Post
I believe that an object extending in front of your lie is off limits for holding onto, however, the tree trunk is considered separate from its branches. I'm not 100% on that though.
I don't think so. It just says your supporting point must be behind your lie. Which it is, regardless of where other parts of that tree go.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:36 PM
patdb23 patdb23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Though this situation is described in the Q&A, you could just ask those who think you're wrong to demonstrate where, in the actual rule book, it says you can't hold onto (or touch) a tree behind your lie. The burden is on them, and they won't find such a rule.
lol, good one David, although I tend to find this approach more of a slap in the face and standoffish though. I think a rule like this should be included in the standard rules so that average folk knows its a rule.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:53 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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A little tact can help. Sometimes it's the only resort when someone claims a non-existent rule. Either that, or you recite the rulebook and when you get to the end, state that you're in the clear.

The Q&A doesn't really add anything here; it just saves time by pointing out that what's already in, or not in, the rulebook.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:57 PM
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prerube prerube is offline
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you can't raise your leg to intentionally stand on branches to get them out of the way, that is moving them .
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:46 PM
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kutz167 kutz167 is offline
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I had someone call this "rule" on me during a doubles round one time, and I didn't have my copy of the Q&A with me to prove them wrong, so I guess I got lucky that my partner made the putt and it wasn't an issue after all.
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2012, 10:53 PM
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RUSSELL RUSSELL is offline
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qa16. thank you.
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