#291  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
BrotherDave's Avatar
BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NC
Years Playing: 7.1
Courses Played: 99
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 11,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
No. It's too severe of a turn and too tight.

Now, someone will two it with a throw in or a random crazy insane drive.

But that doesn't mean it's a par 3. Just because someone aces a hole doesn't mean it's par 2.
Does a hole have to be reachable from the tee for you to consider it a par 3?
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:39 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
I think I'm important
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 21.3
Courses Played: 105
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,947
Send a message via AIM to _MTL_ Send a message via Yahoo to _MTL_
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
Does a hole have to be reachable from the tee for you to consider it a par 3?
Generally, yes. But there always wild exceptions, such as a wide open nothing in the way 470 foot hole, which would not be reachable by a large majority of players.

Take hole 8 at Cedarock, for example. Most players can't reach the pin from the 2nd and 3rd tee, but they are both par 3s.

Granted these holes are some of the worst holes our sport can provide....
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:55 PM
New013's Avatar
New013 New013 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 4.1
Courses Played: 136
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 6,740
Send a message via AIM to New013
...you don't have to reach a hole for it to be birdieable. yea most players can't drive 470 but you don't need to drive 470ft to get within reasonable range to hit a putt. you only have to get to 430 to have a 40ft look at it.

4 short at Buckhorn is a good example. most players can't reach the hole on the drive and even skilled players have a slim chance of getting all the way to the basket. though if you hit your line with enough height you can get within a reasonable distance to hit a putt.
Reply With Quote
  #294  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:57 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
I think I'm important
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 21.3
Courses Played: 105
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,947
Send a message via AIM to _MTL_ Send a message via Yahoo to _MTL_
Quote:
Originally Posted by New013 View Post
...you don't have to reach a hole for it to be birdieable. yea most players can't drive 470 but you don't need to drive 470ft to get within reasonable range to hit a putt. you only have to get to 430 to have a 40ft look at it.

4 short at Buckhorn is a good example. most players can't reach the hole on the drive and even skilled players have a slim chance of getting all the way to the basket. though if you hit your line with enough height you can get within a reasonable distance to hit a putt.
spot on.
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:06 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
.:Master Course Designer:.
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Austin TX
Years Playing: 38.4
Posts: 426
In case it helps to clarify the issue, here's how the holes at Rock Ridge are designed. Actually, here's how all my courses are designed: the idea is that each hole is reachable in 1, 2, or 3 shots. Not one and a half shots or two and a quarter shots, etc.

On Hole #2, as an example, if you can throw a 300' drive, which is not easy to do because of the angle and tightness, you'll still have a full midrange or putter 241' to the basket. Since it takes two shots to get there (in this case two very good shots), it's a par four in my book. Three is a birdie.
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 06-25-2013, 04:07 PM
sloppydisc's Avatar
sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 5.8
Courses Played: 199
Posts: 5,058
I haven't seen anyone come close to getting a 2 on RR #2. I have seen some 3s, a lot of 4s, and believe it or not I have even shot as high as 6 on that hole. Shocking I know. IMO it is a fair to basic 4 that good players will birdie, and bad players like myself will shoot 4s and 5s. But wait til I set up the safari layout!!!
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Old 06-26-2013, 07:54 AM
grodney's Avatar
grodney grodney is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Years Playing: 32.7
Courses Played: 117
Posts: 2,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
In case it helps to clarify the issue, here's how the holes at Rock Ridge are designed. Actually, here's how all my courses are designed: the idea is that each hole is reachable in 1, 2, or 3 shots. Not one and a half shots or two and a quarter shots, etc.

On Hole #2, as an example, if you can throw a 300' drive, which is not easy to do because of the angle and tightness, you'll still have a full midrange or putter 241' to the basket. Since it takes two shots to get there (in this case two very good shots), it's a par four in my book. Three is a birdie.
Exactly.

Quoted from the Par Encyclopedia thread:
"
Par is a "design concept" or "design label".

If the hole was designed to be reached in 1 shot, it is a par 3.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 2 shots*, it is a par 4.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 3 shots**, it is a par 5.


If you can't easily tell how many shots a hole was designed to be reached in, there is probably a design problem with that hole.

Notes:
* Or, at the player's discretion, 1 heroic*** shot.
** Or, at the player's discretion, 2 heroic*** shots.
*** "heroic" implies risky and really really good.
"
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 06-26-2013, 09:26 AM
coupe coupe is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
That's the point I'm making - golf doesn't make concessions for "red level players." It draws two lines of distinction: male and female (and occasionally for little kids).
Actually, the USGA DOES does make exactly that concession: they just call it "bogey golf" and "handicapping."

From the USGA Handicap Systemô Manual, Section 2 Definitions:

Quote:
Bogey Golfer:A male "bogey golfer" is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 20 on a course of standard difficulty. He can hit tee shots an average of 200 yards and reach a 370-yard hole in two shots at sea level. A female bogey golfer is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 24 on a course of standard difficulty. She can hit tee shots an average of 150 yards and reach a 280-yard hole in two shots.

Bogey Rating: A "Bogey Rating" is the USGA's mark of the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer under normal course and weather conditions. It is based on yardage, effective playing length, and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer.

Course Handicap: A "Course Handicap" is the USGA's mark that indicates the number of handicap strokes a player receives from a specific set of tees at the course being played to adjust the player's scoring ability to the level of scratch or zero-handicap golf. For a player with a plus Course Handicap, it is the number of handicap strokes a player gives to adjust the player's scoring ability to the level of scratch or zero-handicap golf. A Course Handicap is determined by applying the player's Handicap Index to a Course Handicap Table or Course Handicap Formula. (See Section 10-4.) A player's Course Handicap is expressed as a whole number. The result of any conditions of the competition, handicap allowance, or competition from a different USGA Course Rating that changes a Course Handicap is considered to be the Course Handicap.

Net Score: A "net score" is a player's score after handicap strokes have been subtracted from the player's gross score. A plus handicap player adds handicap strokes to the player's gross score to yield a net score.
Seems to me like an overly complicated (and expensive) way of changing par to match a player's ability.
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 06-26-2013, 09:36 AM
sloppydisc's Avatar
sloppydisc sloppydisc is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 5.8
Courses Played: 199
Posts: 5,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Exactly.

Quoted from the Par Encyclopedia thread:
"
Par is a "design concept" or "design label".

If the hole was designed to be reached in 1 shot, it is a par 3.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 2 shots*, it is a par 4.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 3 shots**, it is a par 5.


If you can't easily tell how many shots a hole was designed to be reached in, there is probably a design problem with that hole.

Notes:
* Or, at the player's discretion, 1 heroic*** shot.
** Or, at the player's discretion, 2 heroic*** shots.
*** "heroic" implies risky and really really good.
"
Now we just need to define 'reachable' or 'to be reached'.

That definition may depend on the players putting ability. If I can only consistently make putts from 12' my reachable distance is different than they guy that sinks a ton of 30's.

My theory is that if the hole is fun it is a good hole. Even if I shoot a 6 and the sign tells me it is a par 3.
Reply With Quote
 

  #300  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:01 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
.:Master Course Designer:.
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Austin TX
Years Playing: 38.4
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
If the hole was designed to be reached in 1 shot, it is a par 3.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 2 shots*, it is a par 4.
If the hole was designed to be reached in 3 shots**, it is a par 5.


If you can't easily tell how many shots a hole was designed to be reached in, there is probably a design problem with that hole."
That's essentially where I'm coming from. Because of the statistical differences in putting between ball golf and disc golf, some people have a different view of par, but I still think the BG model is best at this point.

As far as a definition of "reachable," I think it's more helpful to think about keeping players out of NAGS (Not A Golf Shot) zones than in keeping them in their putting comfort zones.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.