#1  
Old 10-17-2012, 03:26 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Question about provisionals

At a tournament i played recently a situation arrose that we couldn't quite figure out. A players tee shot went high left through some trees and heading for some gardens. He threw a provisional in case we couldn't find the disc and that throw nestled up about 5 feet from the basket. As it tourned out we found the disc in the gardens which were OB. Obviusly he could now take 1 meter from the OB line, but that would leave him pretty much in jail, and a retee would be the preferred option. So here is the dilemma. Could the provisional be used as his OB retee? I know it couldn't be used as an optional rethrow, had the disc just landed in that same spot. The same logic behind that rule dictates that you shouldn't be allowed to know the result of the rethrow before making a decision on what option to use. In this case it would have been a no-brainer, as the provisional throw was parked. I guess my question is, do you have to specify the specific purpose for a provisional, or does one provisional cover all purposes?
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:02 AM
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bradharris bradharris is online now
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It depends on how the provisional was declared. If you throw near an OB and know on the spot that you will want a rethrow, you can declare a provisional to be your optional rethrow in case the first was OB. However, in this case, it sounds instead like the provisional was simply in case the disc was not found. In that case, once the disc is found, you have to make the decision whether to play it from the OB or take the rethrow.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:58 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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The question comes to mind as to whether you can declare one provisional for two purposes. "I'm taking a provisional in case my disc is lost OR out of bounds."
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:19 AM
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bradharris bradharris is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
The question comes to mind as to whether you can declare one provisional for two purposes. "I'm taking a provisional in case my disc is lost OR out of bounds."
I believe you can, but you're tied to that no matter what. So if you hit first available with the provisional and find your disc is OB but with a good spot, then you still have to play the provisional.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:07 AM
krupicka krupicka is offline
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Throwing provisionals for speed of play is just generally a bad idea.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:16 AM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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A provisional cannot be used as an option for "in case I don't like my IB throw" when it was thrown to cover a possible lost or OB scenario. I don't believe you can even throw a provisional for the contingency where you might want to discard an IB throw and use your provisional instead. Otherwise, people might be throwing provisionals just to throw them knowing it's unlikely they'll use it when their shot is likely IB.
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:48 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Throwing provisionals for speed of play is just generally a bad idea.
I fail to see how that can be true as a general statement.

To answer the OP:
You say it yourself basically:
The moment he wants to play an _optional_ rethrow - the rules state that it cannot be covered by a provisional.

It only replaces a disc found in OB if he said so beforehand - and then he is bound to that choice. Leaving him without the _option_.

The way you state it was if you could not find it - and that situation does not arise leaving the provisional nullified.

It can never leave him with a _choice_ to play the original or the provisional.

So to answer your actual question: Yes, a provisional covers all purposes - in regards to _forced_ rethrows(basically only lost discs, but there might be something else in the rulebook that I have forgotten). If he wants it to replace an optional rethrow on an OB shot, he must say so beforehand. Basically declaring that he _will_ use an optional rethrow in that case.

I would not accept such a call for any optional rethrow though ("In case it is deep in the bushes"). Again: Anything that leaves the player with a choice/evaluation invalidates the use of a thrown provisional.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:00 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
I don't believe you can even throw a provisional for the contingency where you might want to discard an IB throw and use your provisional instead. Otherwise, people might be throwing provisionals just to throw them knowing it's unlikely they'll use it when their shot is likely IB.
I agree - there cannot be a "might" involved there . The provisional thrown for that reason would eliminate the "might".

It is a bit of a gray area to allow "If the disc ends up X, I _will_ use an optional rethrow - and will throw a provisional to cover it".

If X is "in OB" it is pretty easy to determine, objectively, for the group whether the provisional replaces the original.

But it cannot, in my book at least, be used to cover anything that requires a more subjective assesment. If the player has a choice when he arrives at the original - it cannot be replaced by a provisional.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:11 AM
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mubhcaeb78 mubhcaeb78 is offline
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Not to derail, but provisionals save time.. imagine them searching for the disc, not finding it, then going back to tee box and throwing again. Throwing twice on box saves time.

I think the others adequately stated the rules, interpreting if a prov can be a re-throw though should not be up to players. The rules should be defined. Having a magic phrase before your provisional that covers every situation should not be required.
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  #10  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:15 AM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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A Provisional only specified to cover an OB, can be used for a lost disc and vice versa. A Provisional specified to cover a lost disc can also be used if disc is determined to be OB, i.e., the player doesn't have to say the provisional covers both OB and lost.
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