#31  
Old 09-11-2012, 05:01 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfcastillo17 View Post
As a TD, this is something that I always try to avoid as much as possible. I don't particularly care to play with ams in a tournament round. But sometimes it is unavoidable. For example, a full tournament with 90 players on an 18 hole course (meaning a fivesome on each hole), the divisions don't always shake out to be equally divisible by 5. When I'm presented with the situation (for the first round anyway), of course I will mix pro divisions to try and resolve it, but if it still doesn't work out evenly, I hand pick an advanced player that I know has proper etiquette and will not upset the group. Under no circumstances will I ever mix players on the same card that are throwing from different tees, and never a lower division than MA1. That would be a nightmare and certainly unfair to all players on the card, the am included.
THIS is the reason that the wording in the competition manual says that divisions should be segregated from each other "as much as practicable". If extenuating circumstances such as how the numbers shake out necessitate a couple mixed groups, so be it. Add my name to the list of people that think mixing every group should be unacceptable at a PDGA sanctioned tournament.

Here's the thing that is rather unique about our sport. We mix divisions together on the same field of play. You don't see that in other sports. In ball golf, for example, nearly all events are one field of players...the word division doesn't even apply. Instead of divisions, they have entirely separate events, i.e. US Open, US Women's Open, US Senior Open, etc. It's not the US Open featuring the Men's division, the Women's division, and the Senior division.

With that in mind, when I go to a disc golf tournament and enter my division, as far as I'm concerned my division is the entire tournament. I'm not competing against the MA3 players or the MM1s or the MPSs. So to be grouped with them without extenuating circumstances is equivalent to Tiger Woods going to this week's PGA Tour stop and being grouped with a random person out of the gallery as his playing partner. Would that ever happen?

There's also a factor of rules enforcement. Whether it is right or not (I think it's not), I've seen and heard many players over the years that don't want or like to call rules violations on someone out of division. They're not direct competition, so they couldn't care less if a player falls on every putt or foot faults every fairway shot, and they're too focused on their own game to do any teaching of the rules to those players. And it's not just the player who knows the rules and lets things slide for the other players in the group. It's players who don't know the rules well enough to call a violation, or even if they do know the rules, are too intimidated by the superPro (or even just a veteran amateur) on their card to actually call him on something.

And maybe while my competitor is playing with that lax group of intimidated ams, I'm playing with players that call everything (which in a vacuum, I'm totally cool with). My competitor is potentially gaining an advantage where I can not, all determined at random. All mixed groups does is create a total imbalance of rules enforcement. At least when a first-round group is a random mix of players from within the same division, they treat each other equally. They're all direct competition, whether all of them wind up playing well enough to be in the hunt to win by the end of the day or not.

Save the mixing of groups for leagues and local minis and other non-sanctioned play.
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  #32  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:44 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Kenny View Post
I play Pro Grandmaster. When I play in tournaments I prefer to play with people in my division, or at least other Pros.

Section 1.6 of the Competition Manual says I am entitled to that.

There are TDs who like to mix all divisions for the first round of a tourney. By the time I realize what they are doing it is often too late to do anything about it.

The TD either doesn't know the rule or doesn't care and does it because they prefer to.

What can I do so this doesn't happen?

I've tried calling out TDs at the time - doesn't matter.
I've complained to the PDGA - doesn't matter.
I've called the TD out on local message boards - it doesn't matter but does piss off lots of people.

When I bring it up I get dozens of comments from people who say they like it with mixed groups. I couldn't care less. I am entitled to play with my competitors.

Suggestions?
Here's my suggestion, from the perspective of an asst TD of small local tourneys: have all participants Pre-registered and all spots filled. When that occurs it's easy, and, I believe you should expect, to have pure division cards to the greatest extent possible. Having people registering the day of the event in any significant numbers, heck, sometimes the afternoon/evening before makes this proposition tenuous at best. While I agree that's what the competition guidelines and procedures call for, it is truly best practice, not the only acceptable way.

I've been there, making the cards of people who were registering right up to the players' meeting, trying to be sure my TD can get them started on time. It just ain't [my emphasis] as simple as that when you have a number of late registrants
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  #33  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:04 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfcastillo17 View Post
As a TD, this is something that I always try to avoid as much as possible. I don't particularly care to play with ams in a tournament round. But sometimes it is unavoidable. For example, a full tournament with 90 players on an 18 hole course (meaning a fivesome on each hole), the divisions don't always shake out to be equally divisible by 5. When I'm presented with the situation (for the first round anyway), of course I will mix pro divisions to try and resolve it, but if it still doesn't work out evenly, I hand pick an advanced player that I know has proper etiquette and will not upset the group. Under no circumstances will I ever mix players on the same card that are throwing from different tees, and never a lower division than MA1. That would be a nightmare and certainly unfair to all players on the card, the am included.
And, FYI, yes, this is what I meant. I don't plan any type of "shuffled-up" randomly mixed divisions. But when our event can't fill, and we're having to take last minute sign-ups, we can only make the cards so pure. I do look at ratings and the like, and hopefully for local events I know someone I can say quickly will you play with the pro card or the am card or the rec card or whatever to make things work. But I wasn't talking about planned mixed cards. Haven't done it, haven't seen it in my short DG career, and don't really have an opinion on that. I am an MG1 and have been the one that had to run with an MPG card, and locally that's not been a problem, at least that I know, for them. I've also been in one of those tourneys where the late sign-ups caused some mixed cards, and when there were 13 MG1s the TD asked me to have my card take 2 Rec players the first round. Even though they were playing different tees, I believe they were treated well by us.
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  #34  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:56 AM
aardvarkious aardvarkious is offline
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This is probably a bad idea, but hey, it is an idea: what if you said "late signups will be accepted if there is space, but all late signups will be on mixed cards with each other. Early signups will be on cards with only players from their division."

This is a good idea [maybe] if there is consensus that being on a mixed card is a disadvantage. It is a very, very bad idea if it is an advantage.
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  #35  
Old 09-12-2012, 02:39 AM
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who-dat who-dat is offline
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Rules are rules.
Regardless of how arbitrary people think they are, they are still there, established by the PDGA for us and TDs to follow, especially in a PDGA sanctioned tournament.
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  #36  
Old 09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
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Grungedude42 Grungedude42 is offline
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The Rolex Grand Am racing series features several classes of cars, or divisions, racing on the same track, at the same time. Not every sport is class-exclusive.
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  #37  
Old 09-21-2012, 04:31 PM
RastaFish RastaFish is offline
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Maybe a possible solution would be to allow mixed cards in the first rounds of C-tier events, but in any higher-tier events require the cards to be sorted by division for all rounds of play?
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  #38  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:10 PM
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General Scales General Scales is offline
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My .02

I have been on both ends of this debate. I have been the lowly intermediate player playing with a Pro Master, Pro Open and a Womens Open. I did not enjoy that round whatsoever. I felt the entire time I was a burden as I would throw errant shots compared to everyone else on my card. I would be two and three putting while they were patiently standing around to wait for me to get my act together. By the end of the round, you could tell that they were very frustrated with my rate of play, even though I was moving quick for everyone else in my division.

I have also been the MA1 player stuck with two Rec players and a Womens Master player. My rate of play was much quicker then anyone in the group and it was hard to get into a rhythm when I was constantly having to search for the Rec players throws, deal with inappropriate conduct (talking during throwing, advancing down the fairway ahead of other people, etc). I know that my score reflected my frustration with such a slow pace.

While I have no problem playing with anyone of any skill level during a league round or a non sanctioned tournament, I cannot stand it during a sanctioned tournament. Sure it's a great way to meet new people and otherwise play with people you wouldn't normally get to. But then again, that's what before the tournament starts, between rounds and after the tournament is over is for. I will put on the positive face so I do not make anyone feel as if they are a burden but on the inside, it's driving me crazy. I know it's me versus the course but when you have a player grip lock one 50 feet off the tee into crazy brush, spend four throws trying to play forward instead of the smart play to pitch out and continue and then three putt for a 10 on a par 3, it will definitely affect your game. You cannot maintain a rhythm in that situation.

In conclusion, if I have to play a mixed first round, I will ask the TD to place the divisions closer to skill level. An intermediate can play with a rec player cause they aren't that far apart in skill. An advanced player can play with an open player because advanced players want to play open eventually. I think aged protected divisions should play with other age protected divisions. Nothing against any fellow disc golfer but it is quite annoying to move at a snails pace, be the last person in your division to turn in a card and have very little time between rounds because you were stuck with slow moving people.

God, all that makes me sound like a dick but it's how I feel.
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  #39  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:12 AM
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bradharris bradharris is offline
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Recent announcement from the USDGC

Quote:
In other USDGC news, Poole said that the Open and Performance Flights will be mixed for the first day of competition. That means two players from each flight will be grouped together.
I'll be in the Performance flight and I'm very excited about the prospects of playing with top level players for a day. However, I can't imagine they're very thrilled about the idea of playing with the Ams.
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  #40  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Bushman71 Bushman71 is offline
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With ya Pete

I agree with ya Pete. I too play better when I play with players of the same or higher skill level. Not mention that a rec player is not going to call a pro on a foot fault. That unfortunate step over the disk on a long approach shot, or some other rule broken that would normally be a stroke or warning, plane and simple it's the rules. Casual rounds, random draw doubles and non sanctioned events are the place and time to mingle. When cash and ratings are on the line it's time to clock in and go to work.
"Ams are pros playing for merch" we call them baggers.
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