#11  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:10 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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Interesting. I take it you have inside knowledge on the decision process at the USDGC. I would have had to speculate, and might have foolishly guessed that they're just trying something different, again.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:14 AM
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Allurex Allurex is offline
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While I think the Extreme BunCR rule makes for more adventurous play by the players, which ought naturally be more exciting, it does seem soft. This course and this tournament are supposed to be grueling and, at times, miserable.

Throwing an OB drive, then throwing your 2nd one to the green and putting for birdie on a Par 4 seems silly to me.
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2012, 08:33 AM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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While the par may be incorrect on hole 10 (and 12) for the elite players who can throw over 400' accurately, the quality of a hole in competition is based on how well it spreads scores. Yesterday, both 10 & 12 had 2-shot scoring swings on the lead card partly due to the buncr rule and partly due to putting. The buncr rule has done a great job spreading scores on holes regardless whether it appears overall scores are lower. The SSA scoring average this year is within a half throw of the scoring average in previous USDGC years other than 2010 with the extra penalty padding of the "throw and distance" penalty format.

The extra penalty just isn't necessary to get the intended scoring spread effect. In fact, it reduces the overall tightness of competition and brings more luck into the equation which is already more a part of the USDGC format when you consider how close the top players barely miss being inbounds when they do take penalties. Most of those misses do not merit a 2-shot penalty. One is enough and keeps the top players closer. Look how close the competition is at the top this year. If the leaders are tied in the last round by hole 17, you really don't want a slip up to cost 2 throws. You want it to just be 1 shot so the scores stay tight as they head to hole 18.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2012, 08:47 AM
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grodney grodney is online now
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Just to level-set: Keep in mind, the current OB implementation at USDGC is *more* penalizing than the old "regular" PDGA rule of "last point in-bounds plus one stroke".
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:40 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Just to level-set: Keep in mind, the current OB implementation at USDGC is *more* penalizing than the old "regular" PDGA rule of "last point in-bounds plus one stroke".
Not necessarily. It all depends on where the last in-bounds point is on a given shot whether or not advancing with penalty is less punitive than re-throwing without the penalty.

If you go out of bounds 50 feet off the tee, you advance 50 feet and add a penalty, throwing your third shot at the spot. OR you don't advance those 50 feet and you're throwing your second shot from the tee. Seems to me, the re-tee with no penalty is the less punitive option there. Assuming it's a reachable hole, you'd still have a chance to reach the green and putt for 3 with a re-tee. Only chance at 3 going with last-in-bounds is hitting a 200-300 foot shot.

Take for example, Anthon on hole 13 (888). Two days in a row, he's thrown the big hyzer shot out over the parking lot off the tee. Two days in a row, he's been OB on his first shot and in bounds on his second. He carded a 5 on Thursday and a 6 yesterday (he went OB again from the fairway). Those scores are at least 6 and 8 even with "normal" OB rules, and he's probably not playing as aggressively on those shots in the first place if they carried a penalty throw in addition to possible lost distance.

I think it's wrong to say either option is 100% more punitive or less punitive. Like anything, it's situational.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:59 AM
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grodney grodney is online now
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Yes, there are instances it goes either way. But at USDGC, net, the current rule is more penal. That's simply because, at USDGC, *most* OB shots end up OB after already travelling nearly their whole distance. Hyzer off the tee on 888 is an obvious exception.
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:40 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Yes, there are instances it goes either way. But at USDGC, net, the current rule is more penal. That's simply because, at USDGC, *most* OB shots end up OB after already travelling nearly their whole distance. Hyzer off the tee on 888 is an obvious exception.
I disagree again. Cutting the corner over the water on 5, most approach shots to 9, and the tee shots on 10, 12 and 17 all have a carry over OB for a fair amount of the disc's flight. And then there are the lefties and sidearm players who are going to carry over OB on 3, and likely on their tee shots on 9.

And I can't agree that this year's rule is more penal when more players are shooting lower scores than in year's past. Anthon shot his course record 53 in 2009 when there was normal OB rules on most holes. There were *3* 53s yesterday alone. Players seem to be playing everything much more aggressively than in the past, and it's in large part because of the change in the OB penalty. They're not as afraid to take risks because the penalty isn't there to dissuade them.
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  #18  
Old 10-06-2012, 01:38 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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The rules in 2008 and 2009 included a mix of buncr rules like this year, regular OB and T&D. The SSA and scoring averages in 2008 & 2009 matches the scoring average this year with 100% buncr. That would imply that the buncr rule is at least as punitive as normal OB and close to T&D on occasion.

One difference is that we now have more top players who can eagle hole 10 and 12 than in 2008 & 2009 perhaps due to disc technology but more likely to just having more players with ratings over 1035 (one in 2009 and nine this year). So with more players with stellar ratings, we're naturally seeing more stellar scores because they shoot that well on average. However, the lower rated players are not shooting any better or worse on average than they did in past USDGCs before 2010.
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  #19  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I disagree again. Cutting the corner over the water on 5, most approach shots to 9, and the tee shots on 10, 12 and 17 all have a carry over OB for a fair amount of the disc's flight. And then there are the lefties and sidearm players who are going to carry over OB on 3, and likely on their tee shots on 9.

And I can't agree that this year's rule is more penal when more players are shooting lower scores than in year's past. Anthon shot his course record 53 in 2009 when there was normal OB rules on most holes. There were *3* 53s yesterday alone. Players seem to be playing everything much more aggressively than in the past, and it's in large part because of the change in the OB penalty. They're not as afraid to take risks because the penalty isn't there to dissuade them.
Okay, you're right honey. Goodnight.
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  #20  
Old 10-07-2012, 08:59 AM
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tom12003 tom12003 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Players seem to be playing everything much more aggressively than in the past, and it's in large part because of the change in the OB penalty. They're not as afraid to take risks because the penalty isn't there to dissuade them.
From my understanding, the distance OB rule was used to result in more spectacular shots for the "benefit" of the spectators and viewers (a wow factor). Definitely, the "safe" shot was rare in the open division, and from what I saw, most of the riskier shots were successful. The throw-and-distance OB rule would have probably resulted in the scores being 5-10 throws lower for the lead cards with about the same tournament results. From my perspective, I like the throw-and-distance OB for this tournament.

The scores for the performance division were definitely lower even though they usually played safer shots (compared to last year's performance results where throw-and-distance OB was used). Far fewer double digit hole scores.

The use of traditional OB (where a disc last passed in-bounds) is almost un-usable for the Winthrop course as there is OB almost everywhere. First, the spotters would be running their tails off trying to track flight paths and "spots". This also opens up potential controversy on a spot between a player (often 300-400' away) and the spotters or within the call of the player's grouping.
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