#11  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:55 AM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I don't understand this type of stuff. Or better worded, I don't understand why people are so worried about how much is paid out.....

Why should anything close to 100% of the money be paid back out? That's not a tournament - that's just people throwing money in a pot and divvying it up amongst themselves.

It was said in another thread (or maybe this one) that people seem to place $0 of value on playing in "a tournament" in and of itself.


And the newcomer that has been involved with disc golf for only a few months sees that the king is not wearing any clothes and asks the big question.


Most disc golf events really are just organized gambling disguised as a competition and no one wants to acknowledge the king's dong is hanging out. Unfortunately, this is how tournaments originated and today's players seem unwilling to give up the gambling (chance at a cut of the entire entry pot) for true competition.

Tournaments for amateurs should be a celebration of who shot the lowest score, not how much return a player can get for the entry fees.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2012, 08:10 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discette View Post
And the newcomer that has been involved with disc golf for only a few months sees that the king is not wearing any clothes and asks the big question.


Most disc golf events really are just organized gambling disguised as a competition and no one wants to acknowledge the king's dong is hanging out. Unfortunately, this is how tournaments originated and today's players seem unwilling to give up the gambling (chance at a cut of the entire entry pot) for true competition.

Tournaments for amateurs should be a celebration of who shot the lowest score, not how much return a player can get for the entry fees.
This is the biggest problem we have, and it starts with the PDGA. They needed to stand up years ago and put their foot down on the AM payout scale. The AM payout scale is just the pro payout scale in merch, and that's stupid. Unfortunately, it seemed to be working and the PDGA was either unwilling or scared to face a reduction in fees by turning off the merch windfall. So it is what it is. Every year it gets more and more ingrained in people's heads that they should essentially get paid to show up and play competitive disc golf. Someday somebody is going to have to get up the guts to stand up and say "enough is enough."
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:47 PM
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grodney grodney is offline
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Discette and ThreePutt are, of course, correct. Many of us said it for years and years. But there was no fighting the establishment.

Here was PDGA "Admin" (a more powerful Admin you will never see) Hoeniger in 2004 on pdga.com:
"
The current Am merch heavy system has been a huge factor in the growth of the sport as a whole and PDGA membership numbers through the 1990s and into the 21st C.

However as Am entry fees and payouts have continued to increase it has resulted in fewer players turning pro, as many Ams with games that 10 years ago wouldve seen them playing Pro, have grown to love the stacks of merch they receive.

One thing we will looking at as we plan the 05 Tour during the fall summit (end September in Augusta) is reductions in entry fees first and foremost for Ams, but also for Pros at events below the NT or A tier level.

"

I always found that first paragraph to be disturbing. He's claiming the system was a huge factor in the growth of the sport AS A WHOLE (thus including everything outside the pdga and tournaments!!). I felt the system HURT the growth more than anything. At least the long-term growth. I never even realized there might be some logic in those next couple paragraphs until I re-read it today.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showt...t=17493&page=8

Last edited by grodney; 11-15-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:23 PM
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MacDaddy MacDaddy is offline
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We typically pay out 100% of fees in merch for Ams. You can easily make money that way, as you buy the merch wholesale and are paying it out at retail. That said, I am all in favor of keeping Am entry fees low and flat; i.e. $20 or less and the same for all divisions. Sponsorhsip is the way to go for CTP's and let the players fund the ace pot.
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:42 PM
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Now, I'm one who has often posted that Ams should pay smaller fees for tournaments, but not receive anything back other than trophies for 1st.

But the PDGA-bashing is a little excessive. A few years ago they tried to put caps on Am entry fees, but that only lasted a few months as TDs didn't stick to the caps. The PDGA is a member-run organization, and it's not outlandish that it sometimes does what members want.

As a TD you can run a high-entry, high-payout event. Or a low-entry, low-payout event (100%, just 100% of a smaller pool of money). Or a low-entry, trophy-only event. Many of us have found that the higher-stakes events draw a lot more Ams. Not always, but usually. So TDs tend to do what the players like, and the PDGA tends to do what the TDs and players like.

In the meantime, the wholesale/retail margin financially supports the tournament structure, and at higher fees and payouts, supports it better.

I wish we'd evolved a different structure, where people paid $20-$25 with no expectation of a return. But players are acclimated to the current system, and it's not that easy to wean them. The PDGA's police powers are weak; if they compel a system players don't want, players or TDs can go non-sanctioned.
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:54 PM
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Todd Wiley Todd Wiley is offline
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I am planning on hosting my first sanctioned C-Tier event in 2013.

Since over 99% of the disc golfers in my area are not PDGA members, I plan on having low cost entry to adjust for the additional $10 non-member fees.

Projected Base Entry Costs per Division
Amateur~
Am4, Fa2, Fa3, All Juniors - $10
Am3, Fa1, All Masters - $15
Am2, - $20
Am1 - $30
Pro~
All Masters - $20
FPO - $30
MPO - $40
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:01 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Now, I'm one who has often posted that Ams should pay smaller fees for tournaments, but not receive anything back other than trophies for 1st.

But the PDGA-bashing is a little excessive. A few years ago they tried to put caps on Am entry fees, but that only lasted a few months as TDs didn't stick to the caps. The PDGA is a member-run organization, and it's not outlandish that it sometimes does what members want.

As a TD you can run a high-entry, high-payout event. Or a low-entry, low-payout event (100%, just 100% of a smaller pool of money). Or a low-entry, trophy-only event. Many of us have found that the higher-stakes events draw a lot more Ams. Not always, but usually. So TDs tend to do what the players like, and the PDGA tends to do what the TDs and players like.

In the meantime, the wholesale/retail margin financially supports the tournament structure, and at higher fees and payouts, supports it better.

I wish we'd evolved a different structure, where people paid $20-$25 with no expectation of a return. But players are acclimated to the current system, and it's not that easy to wean them. The PDGA's police powers are weak; if they compel a system players don't want, players or TDs can go non-sanctioned.
The "pay the AMs to play" system came from the PDGA. They got us in this mess. The least they could do is take some leadership in trying to get us out.
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:05 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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No. The PDGA embraced the practice of awarding "cabbage" started by Duane Utech in the Detroit area in the early 90s for the Can-Am series. Surprise, surprise, players liked it and the practice expanded before the PDGA ever developed event guidelines, TD reports, payout tables, etc. Those all came from current practices seen as successful at the time.
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
The "pay the AMs to play" system came from the PDGA. They got us in this mess. The least they could do is take some leadership in trying to get us out.
Could be true that they started it---I don't go back quite that far. But it's not that easy to get us out. Imagine the anti-PDGA howls about their arrogance, trying to force an unwanted change of that magnitude.

I've seen a few tournaments buck the trend and be successful....but after a few years, they give in and join the crowd. Not due to PDGA pressure, but player pressure. I don't know about other TDs but when I run a tournament, I want people to come; if payouts are the accepted norm, I'll pay out Ams too.
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  #20  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:31 AM
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This has been a eye opening thread. Iacas asked the same question I've had for a while now. I just had no idea how hard it would be to change the current system.
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