#11  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:52 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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The BRP hole is cool, if done very sparingly. Holes like that put a premium on a throw that flies and lands straight, very difficult to execute. And it looks very cool.

But you wouldn't want a lot of them. The second hole plays more interestingly because you may be trying to execute some sort of S-turn. More importantly the 2nd shots, especially after bad drives, give you to the chance to be creative and execute something unusual to pull off a save.
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2012, 11:09 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mubhcaeb78 View Post
In WI there are quite a few woods that were clear cut and row planted. I drive past one regularly.
At a school course that is getting redesigned, they have some rows of pines that could imitate brp4 just not as long. Thus this thread..
There are other angles besides straight down the pipe. How about coming at it from 45 degrees off-line? The second throw is down the line (one hopes), but the first throw offers a choice of a big gap farther from the basket, smaller and smaller gaps nearer the basket. Make players choose whether to try to hit a large gap and try to make it turn toward the basket or hit a small gap far away with a straight shot, either way controlling the speed so it doesn't fly past the fairway.
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  #13  
Old 12-11-2012, 12:08 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mubhcaeb78 View Post
Another discussion about the ideal..
While the ideal will be different based on skill.. maybe there can be some consensus on what is just right..

On a wooded fairway what are your preferences for design?

A walled appearance (brp4).. that can make recovery shots very difficult/impossible.
Or using restricting trees (7oaks19).. that give some paths back to basket if outside fairway.

And what width is too narrow? brp 15ish the minimum you'd use? Or go down to 10, 5?
Like you say, a "good" hole is "good" mainly for a specific skill group. This is exactly right and that is why it is so hard to come to a consensus....unless you define who your target player is.

More highly skilled players have more accuracy and distance (of course). So what is not challenging for highly skilled players, is just right for lesser skilled players, and too challenging for even lower skilled players.

Generally speaking.....7Oaks19 looks too easy for Gold, appropriate for Blue (easy-ish birdie/deuce) & White (hardish birdie), and too hard of a par-3 (one drive) hole for Red. Blue&White love this since it is rewarding to get a 2, but a bogey 4 (or worse) are very real possibilities. Gold finds it boring as it is too easy (a 2 is expected, so there is only downside). Red finds it too hard as there are too few 2's to make it exciting.

But, lower Red and below find it fun since a 3 is a challenge/reward and there is plenty of punishment for errant throws.

Of course, there is a place for this hole on most courses as if there is a variety of hole types, it tests a bunch of skills. But if the majority of the course is characterized by this level of hole, the overall playing experience would be a blast for 900-925 rated players, but would not be too exciting for 950+ players. It might be frustrating for <875 rated players.

To answer your question about what is too narrow (in my estimation): If your targeted skill group cannot successfully navigate the gap at halfway down the fairway (or fairway segment) more than 3/4's of the time, it is probably too narrow.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:52 PM
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DSCJNKY DSCJNKY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
To answer your question about what is too narrow (in my estimation): If your targeted skill group cannot successfully navigate the gap at halfway down the fairway (or fairway segment) more than 3/4's of the time, it is probably too narrow.
great analysis Dave.
DSCJNKY
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  #15  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:40 PM
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The 2nd picture is a wonderful hole, and really presents the opportunity for recovery and risk/reward shots.

The 1st picture is a wonderful signature hole, and while it does a wonderful job of promoting disc golf and the brutal nature a hole can present, it's doesn't present enough room for recovery. If you miss the fairway, you just chip back into the middle of the fairway and keep plugging along.

Both holes look wonderful, and I would love to play wither, but the 2nd picture looks like a lot more fun, as I personally would probably just chip 4 straight shots on the Blue Ribbon hole, take my 4 and move on to the next hole.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgiggey View Post
The 2nd picture is a wonderful hole, and really presents the opportunity for recovery and risk/reward shots.

The 1st picture is a wonderful signature hole, and while it does a wonderful job of promoting disc golf and the brutal nature a hole can present, it's doesn't present enough room for recovery. If you miss the fairway, you just chip back into the middle of the fairway and keep plugging along.

Both holes look wonderful, and I would love to play wither, but the 2nd picture looks like a lot more fun, as I personally would probably just chip 4 straight shots on the Blue Ribbon hole, take my 4 and move on to the next hole.
AGREE
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:03 AM
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I like both. Relative to ideal based on my skill level (PDGA blue level player), the BRP hole is much tougher to throw a disc straight off the tee with no initial room to turn or hyzer flip even just little. But that is why I like it so much. I'm in the "non-city park recreational player" category. I LOVE stepping up to a hole, analyzing the challenge, and feeling some anxiety and anticipation. If I have a bad drive, I don't care, it was my fault, and I care even less if the rough has been cleared up enough to allow me a chance to recover. Only to a small extent do I take clearing off the fairway into account and allow room for execution of recovery throws. It should not be easy to recover from a bad drive, it should require immense skill to shank a drive, then throw a great recovery and save par (assuming par 3 golf). If you shank a drive, you should expect a bogey, plain and simple. Great players may recover and save par, but it's not to be expected. All that said, I also believe in a designs that incorporate a variety of holes, all that require some distinct and specific throw off the tee - like long and straight, long left, short hard left, long right, and short hard right. This truly tests the well rounded player. Take the player who ONLY throws RHBH, and if he can execute a great variety of throws he may score well. On the other side too, a decent player who can throw RHBH, RHFH, overhand, rollers, etc will also probably score well. But those RHBH players without a developed anny or occasional flick will be hard pressed to score well. Course should make you elevate and continually improve your game, not cater to your comfort levels!!!

So, the second hole looks super easy, as a RHBH blue level player. It still offers a picturesque framed tee shot that requires fairly specific skilled drive off the tee (accuracy with left-right aim), but if the hole was anywhere from 275-350' long, I'd pick any number of moderate to over stable discs from my bag, snap them hard to get a bit of turn through mid-fairway, and let them naturally fade back to the green for what I suspect is an easy deuce hole for the players rated 900 and above.
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