#301  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:51 PM
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Lewis Lewis is offline
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Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
In disc golf, the basic skills are much easier to develop, so the guys with big talent can rocket to the top very fast, and mediocre athletes can be scoring around par on their local course, but disc golf has a much more generous idea of what par is, and the average dg course is much less challenging-- and intimidating-- than the average ball golf course.
What I mean by basic skill in the two sports is something like throwing a disc straight in the direction you want it vs. hitting a golf ball straight in the direction you want it. Most people never learn to hit a golf ball straight, but most of us can learn to play catch with an Ultrastar. But this is not to say that the difference between me and Bubba Watson is greater than the difference between me and Paul McBeth. It may seem like less to someone who doesn't know what he is watching, because of how most dg courses are laid out, and how dg sets par, but Paul's ~78 at Flyboy to my ~110 is a more vivid illustration of the difference in our skill than disc golfers usually get to see.

Last edited by Lewis; 01-06-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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  #302  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
For disc golf to become a serious professional sport, innovations that increase distance will have to stop and we'll need to have consistent and better target designs. There will also be minimum standards for the courses suitable for top level play, maybe 60 SSA minimum (it's currently 49).

Maybe standard molds? I had someone bring this up and after much discussion is sounded like a pretty good idea.

Keep the slower discs available while keeping out the hyperspeed discs.....Top guys can still throw a Teebird FAR.
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  #303  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Notice how there are innovations that are illegal for tournament ball golf that rec players use such as the smaller ball, square groove club face and now belly putters. We'll have a similar divergence in the pro versus rec game equipment so the playing field is more consistent for tournament play when there's much bigger money involved.
Guess I should have kept reading before posting previously.
I am glad to hear that you think this is where we will be forced to go in the future.

Better courses are what we need now.....and the faster the discs get....the harder it is to design courses (unless you are just going to make them tight/narrow where drivers are a bad idea. Property is hard to come by...and the new equipment just increases the avg. acreage needed.
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  #304  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:27 PM
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Yea right, if you want to appeal to the mainstream you have to have discs that go hella far.
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  #305  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Central Scrutinizer Central Scrutinizer is offline
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Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
That's great in theory, but the model of how we get new courses installed has to radically change for that to be the norm. Parks departments have no real incentive to give us enough land to make a tournament quality course. A pitch n putt par 3 course is plenty for 95% of the people who will play it and costs a lot less to install. That parks department doesn't see any benefit to us running tournaments so why should they bother spending the extra money and effort to cater to the small portion of our sport who wants to play that kind of course?
(Towelie voice) I know...

When the critical mass does arrive, we'll see private "true par 4" (should I call it "TP4" from now on?) courses go in. A lot, I hope. I know I'd pay $300/year for a membership at a private local InCrEdIbLy AwEsOmE TP4 course. Our family probably spends that much on pizza. Would another 200 people near me join together to yield $60,000 in revenue for the owner? ... MMmmmmmmmaybe in a decade? Would that be enough to sustain the business? (I ask because I'm not sure.)

At such a course, the immortals would shoot an even 72, and someone like me, as in ball golf, would shoot around +12, in the 80s. We'd see the gap between us at appropriate levels. (to keep this on topic with the thread. :-)

The closest thing I can think of near me is Burchfield Park in Holt, MI., where a bunch of private land was donated to the parks department. Two baskets, two tees per hole. The long to long setup is 9,500'. Since it's more open (although there are usually well-placed head-high autumn olive bushes where needed), I shoot about 80 on the L to L setup, which is +8 if you're assuming "TP4." I throw 300'-325' with a Beast, but putt well for an Am. I guess that's like the middle-aged guy in ball golf who's decent locally but doesn't hit big drives off the tee compared to younger players of his talent and makes a bunch of pars. Sounds about right...

I don't know what our top players would shoot at Burchfield, but I bet it's pretty far below 72. I'd sure enjoy watching it.
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  #306  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:35 PM
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dusty5150 dusty5150 is offline
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its not all about distance and length, putting could/should be a lot more difficult in DG - make the baskets smaller!
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  #307  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:44 PM
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This thread has been one of the best reads on DGCR for me yet. There have been lots of great perspectives on the perceived skill gap, with a few main theories given for what causes this rift(or the lack thereof?).

1) The ease with which a new/rec player can advance to 'pro' levels given time and practice.

2) Equipment. Targets are too easy to hit? too hard to hit? (too many spit-outs or cut-thrus) Newer discs are easier to throw? I've seen some people kinda skirt the edges of these concepts in this thread. It would be pretty cool to see NT and up use bull's eye baskets..

3) Course layout and difficulty. The idea that the facilities we play on can be equally responsible for 'compressing' scores or I guess we'll say 'de-compressing' or 'stretching' scores. This is the winning theory IMO. The vast majority of our courses are NOT championship caliber. Outside of tournaments, on our everyday courses, 'pros' (whats the consensus here with this? 1000+ rated? 1020?) can only outshoot the 'joes' by so much. Put Pro X vs Joe Y on the Toboggan course @ Kensington or some course like it and you see the 'de-compression' of these players scores. I know this has all been said, but I'm seconding (or thirding, fourthing, however many opinions have been offered) the notion that once we see more true par 70-72 courses, we'll have more tangible evidence of where we Joes stand against the mighty Pros.

copied from PDGA Ratings Guide:
"Consider a real easy course. The top players can only shoot so well on this course, given they are limited to scoring no better than a 2 on virtually every hole. However on these courses, where the average hole is likely to be wide open and less than 250 feet, even lower rated players can shoot lots of 2s. This "compresses" or narrows the range of scores for players of widely varying skills in that round. On the other hand, a really tough course will spread the scores farther apart in each round when compared to a course with a scoring average of around 50 for scratch players."
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  #308  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSky View Post
I think Woj, being around 990 is actually a little better than "scratch" in golf terms, based on the fact that 1000 rated disc golfer is more like a Tour Pro in golf. So, Woj's equivalent golfer would shoot around a 70-72, making it a 30-40 (or more) shot difference with the duffer. Still a wider margin, but not as large as I thought it would be.
Really?

Tour Pro in golf is more like a 1020+ player.

on a normal par 72 (not home course) he would probably shoot 75-78...tour guy would be 68-72 on the same course

Avg Ball golf player"hovers around 100"...according to what i found

From a BG forum;

"i'd believe that 10% of people WITH HANDICAPS are single digits. but 75% of golfers don't have handicaps"

Sounds like PDGA member vs non-member......the fact we play tournaments makes most of us on here not "avg" Joes.
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  #309  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by New013 View Post
Yea right, if you want to appeal to the mainstream you have to have discs that go hella far.
Yea, never said we didn't.....

But in PDGA play.....at NTs/ A-tiers on "not the best" courses maybe this would be interesting. I bet the can throw an Orc way farther than 90% of people throw a Blizzard KA-tanya!

Truthfully the best courses I know of are perfect for this....they require a lot of 350-420ft placement shots off the tee followed by accurate second shots. Of course with shorter holes mixed in.
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  #310  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:55 PM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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Originally Posted by New013 View Post
Yea right, if you want to appeal to the mainstream you have to have discs that go hella far.
Discs already go far enough. It's the players that don't know how to throw them. (Including myself)
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