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  #521  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:38 PM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
I honestly think making putting more challenging would make dg more fit for TV.
Out of curiosity, how?
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  #522  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:44 PM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
I threw a 41 today, do you have any idea whether that was a good round or not? If we consistently applied a real standardized par, I could tell you I was -4 and you'd know it was a mediocre round. Eliminating the whole concept of par doesn't do anything positive for the sport, it only makes us look less cohesive and coordinated.
If I knew the SSA of your course, I wouldn't need to know par.

I fully realize the concept of par is not going anywhere. You are correct in saying we need to standarize the system.
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  #523  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:46 PM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is online now
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The Pros v Joes Gap is small compared to the 'Bama /Irish gap...
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  #524  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:50 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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Here are the PGA Player Tour Stats for 2012. The stats themselves aren't important to this discussion. But notice the number that are tracked in relation to par. http://www.cbssports.com/golf/stats

We're not officially tracking these types of stats for top pros currently. But it will become more important as the money increases. Having birdie percentages over 50% are not exactly going to inspire new spectators that this sport is difficult, especially when they have golf stats to use for comparison. For the future development of the pro game, it would seem worthwhile to get our game parameters more inline now while we're out of the spotlight.
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  #525  
Old 01-07-2013, 10:57 PM
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smyith smyith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
For the future development of the pro game, it would seem worthwhile to get our game parameters more inline now while we're out of the spotlight.
^^This
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  #526  
Old 01-08-2013, 02:12 AM
bluTDI09 bluTDI09 is offline
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I must say, this is the most interesting thread I have read on here in a long time because it is fun to hear what all levels of players think about what the sport is and should be. I just finished reading about the last 30 pages of posts and I would like to toss a few thoughts out there... (bear with me. it might be long)

As for the difference in skill between the average player and the elite player in disc golf vs. other sports, I think we can all agree that the sport is in its infancy and has not reached the level that it will given more time. That is not to say though that the elite players today are not EXTREMELY good, because anyone who has seen them can attest that they are. I just think that the scale of player skill is different in disc golf than in other sports in that many people can play the game reasonably well with very little invested time or effort because throwing an object in a certain direction is not inherently difficult like hitting a small stationary ball with a club or a moving one with a bat. As support for that statement, recall (or imagine) the last time a novice ball golfer in your casual foursome made a joke about using their "hand wedge" to get out of a tough bunker.... I think this is what naturally led to the discussion about what makes disc golf difficult, and most people seem to agree that it isn't putting.

So, there are two main stances that people seem to take (both of which are valid):

1) Disc golf is its own game and does not need to compare to other sports. Even if putting is "easy" and scores are way under par, it is fun to play on a recreational level and that is part of the appeal, so it doesn't need fixing.

2) Disc golf has not reached its potential and therefore can be adjusted to accommodate the changes in equipment and player skill to better showcase the game's development and help it grow. A subset of this stance would be to try and maintain the parallels to ball golf that have always existed in disc golf and even to try and make it more like ball golf in other ways.

I personally have mostly the second viewpoint in that I think that the things that are inherently fun about disc golf are mostly the same things that are inherently fun about ball golf: constantly working to improve yourself, course management and strategy, variety of shots, and the feeling you get watching that perfect shot fly away from you just like you envisioned it... I realize that these are not the same things that some other people enjoy about disc golf in its current state, but in my opinion they are the types of things that are part of the game itself and not just the circumstances in which disc golf is casually played.

This leads me to my first point: in my opinion, it is silly to ignore all the progress and refinement that golf has made over many years. What people find interesting about golf are likely to be the same things that people would find interesting about disc golf. Things like comparison to par only have meaning if they stay true to the nature of the game. Unfortunately, par is a concept that works better on ball golf courses than it does on disc golf courses (for now) because in ball golf there is a pretty clear distinction between long game and short game and a fairly consistent standard of short game among good players. This means that course designers can basically take the number of strokes to get to the green (long game) plus two (short game).

Chuck, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this essentially the model that disc golf tries to use in its guidelines for setting par? The thing that is wacky about disc golf though is that what we perceive as short game in disc golf is much easier than in ball golf so allowing two strokes for short game results in scores way under par. But if you only allow one stroke for short game to compensate, it essentially nullifies the opportunity for birdie from anything but long game (ace on a par 2, throw in on a two shot par 3).

This highlights the need for more refined course designs (championship level courses), as most people have been saying. I think we do need better courses to showcase and test the talent of elite players but I also agree with those people saying that we also need short game to be more difficult if we expect to ever achieve a meaningful distinction of par. Last, I will clarify that having a meaningful distinction of par is not what makes competition work in disc golf and that it ultimately boils down to who has the fewest strokes, no matter how easy putting is. I just think that having a meaningful distinction of par has value for the appeal of the game because having a common standard makes comparing rounds between yourself and others possible on different courses. And let's be honest, disc golfers love nothing more than to think about and talk about their rounds with other disc golfers.
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  #527  
Old 01-08-2013, 02:33 AM
bluTDI09 bluTDI09 is offline
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I also want to say a few things about difficulty of putting...

Why would making putting more difficult be bad for recreational players? All it does is place a premium on putting your approach shots closer to the basket for everyone. Yes, good players will shoot better scores because they will (still) putt better but that is no different from how it is now. I think that some people are assuming that pros will not miss more putts with a smaller target and I do not believe that is true. Also, putting is extremely difficult in ball golf and that does not keep thousands of casual players from frustrating the crap out of themselves weekend after weekend. The difficulty is part of the appeal of the game.

I also agree that sometimes cut throughs and spit outs happen and can add an undesirable element of luck to the game and that good putts should all have an equal chance of staying in the ideal target. However, we do not all agree on what is a "good" putt. Hitting dead center of an area is not the only aspect of trying to hole out in golf (ball or disc). Controlling the speed of your shot is important and choosing a style of putt that maximizes your probability for success is part of the skill of the game. You can hit the dead center of the cup in ball golf but if the ball is moving fast enough it will not fall in. Similarly, I do not think that a target should be expected to catch a rocket putt every time even if it does hit dead center. How many of us have played with that person who launches their putts and then complains at the end of the round about how many spit outs they had as if their putting style had nothing to do with it?

I think the only real argument against smaller targets like the bullseye is the existing install base of courses and the cost and effort associated with changing them. Unfortunately, that is a very real argument. I do like MJ's idea of modifying existing baskets to reduce the target area vertically, but I think that a change in the PDGA standards for newly installed courses as well as using the new standard for large tournaments would be the most ideal solution. Over time, it would become the norm.
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  #528  
Old 01-08-2013, 05:34 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGstatistician View Post
If a player shoots -12 and wins a NT or shoots -5 and wins an NT, does it make any difference? Par and shots to par are meaningless in both sports (DG and BG). Golf courses have ratings that are the true indicator of how difficult a course is, par is still meaningless (DG courses should have established ratings just the same).
They are not, currently at least, that meaningless in ball golf. In Europe at least, most handicapped rounds are played using Stableford scoring. And is used for handicap regulation. That is based on pars.

I can see why disc golf had to move away from playing the course to playing the field, when it came to rating players (weather conditions are much more an influence than in ball golf) - and that has left us with little practical use for the pars - apart from the one rule that assigns penalty strokes based on it.

(The suggested fixed 7 strokes would not work. If a tournament uses gun start, two players would be penalized differently for missing the same number of holes if one misses par 3s and the other misses par 4s and 5s).
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  #529  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:27 AM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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I still fail to see why making the game more difficult would result in it becoming more popular, especially on TV. The beauty of the game, to me, is the disc's flight. Not putting difficulty. If anything, changing the difficulty would result in slowed growth by casuals, which would equal less eyes glued to TVs if the game ever reached TV audiences. I could be in the minority here, but that's my take.
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  #530  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:46 AM
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keltik keltik is offline
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no BigSky I agree with you. I can't putt as it stands now and if they made it harder I don't think I could take it.

I think we just need bigger courses with a true par 72 standard. Probably already said in this thread (I think I even read it in here somewhere) but the average hole in golf is a par 4. par 4 for us really starts at 600ft. I think there are enough abandoned golf courses out there that could be converted into "Gold level" DGC's. JMO. Bigger course=more air shots to the green. Pitch and putt is fine for most casual stuff but for the big boys to really strut their stuff we need to really stretch it out. and keep plenty of trees in the way. It always makes me feel better to see pros whack trees on youtube.
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