Pro Vs. Avg Joe- Skill Gap

[Cgkdisc]

One aspect of this discussion that hasn't been mentioned is spectators. We know our current game does not interest many spectators even our hard core players. Something to consider is whether increasing the putting challenge by tweaking the basket in some of the ways mentioned for all players to spread scores and even restricting the equipment such as Super-sized Condor putters would lead to more interest among our mere mortals to watch the top dogs play.

Some of you say you don't want to watch someone trying to sink a 40 footer with the Super Condor or UltraStar. But my suspicion is you're more concerned you don't want to be forced to play that way. The evidence out there for people watching Brody's trick shot videos and Crazy John sinking the basketball shot on Letterman would indicate it might be more compelling to watch, especially when players do it well.

Bottom line - if any changes are made for the pro game it better lead directly or indirectly to many more spectators or the efforts would simply make the game tougher just to do it.

[jeverett]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

One aspect of this discussion that hasn't been mentioned is spectators. We know our current game does not interest many spectators even our hard core players. Something to consider is whether increasing the putting challenge by tweaking the basket in some of the ways mentioned for all players to spread scores and even restricting the equipment such as Super-sized Condor putters would lead to more interest among our mere mortals to watch the top dogs play.

Some of you say you don't want to watch someone trying to sink a 40 footer with the Super Condor or UltraStar. But my suspicion is you're more concerned you don't want to be forced to play that way. The evidence out there for people watching Brody's trick shot videos and Crazy John sinking the basketball shot on Letterman would indicate it might be more compelling to watch, especially when players do it well.

Bottom line - if any changes are made for the pro game it better lead directly or indirectly to many more spectators or the efforts would simply make the game tougher just to do it.

With regard to spectators (and Smyth's previous comments about what sports tv networks want to see), I personally feel like this comes down mostly to on-course visibility. Unlike in traditional golf, most disc golf courses are far more technical/wooded, and disc golf flight routes are vastly more lateral, as well, obstructing visibility lines and generally making for low-interest footage. Basically, our courses are very difficult to do justice to on camera with a single stationary camera at the tee/thrower, even an elevated camera. The courses used for NT and Major events are typically a bit more open, but even then the best disc golf footage typically involves two cameras covering a single hole simultaneously (and switching the camera from tee to basket angle mid-flight). Doing this with editing post-event isn't difficult, but it's a technical challenge to attempt with live footage.

[Pwingles]

Originally Posted by BigSky

New chalked it up best when saying that those who think the gap is smaller only think so because the courses are easier. Even when you put Joe disc golfer on a very difficult championship level course, he's only gonna suck so bad. The Joe golfer would fair much more poorly on a very difficult golf course, as backed up by Iacas' stats.

Basically, the smaller gap in skill is inevitable, because we play an easier game. And many of us (myself not included) want to make it more difficult.

Is that about the gist of this mega-thread?

Where do you get this idea that the amount of sucking one can do in ball golf is limitless but its limited in DG?

[duckychucky]

A non-playing spectator won't know the difference if pros
use a bigger disc. They will notice them putting thru a
narrow gap in trees or to a basket on a cool rock formation
or on the side of a hill. Harder greens give us the 2-putt
scenario some are looking for and makes the sport more
visually impressive without changing any equipment.
Watching pros sink the same looking putt from slightly
different lengths is not exciting. Watching them have to
stretch or flick and really work for putts (or have perfect
approachs so they don't have to) makes putting no longer
the most boring part of the game to watch. Harder courses
are great but take up lots of expensive land, harder
greens can make short holes REAL par 3s.

[Cgkdisc]

Doesn't work to change the putting factor which is primarily based on the ratio of the height and width of the target zone versus the size/diameter of the disc. Stopping power of the receptacle matters in DG as already noted to stop cut thrus unlike goals where passing thru a ripped net still counts after crossing the line. As long as there's a clear flight path to the basket, even if it's elevated or the player has to straddle or play from their knee, that dynamic between those elements essentially sets the putting performance factor for the sport.

[duckychucky]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Doesn't work to change the putting factor which is primarily based on the ratio of the height and width of the target zone versus the size/diameter of the disc. Stopping power of the receptacle matters in DG as already noted to stop cut thrus unlike goals where passing thru a ripped net still counts after crossing the line. As long as there's a clear flight path to the basket, even if it's elevated or the player has to straddle or play from their knee, that dynamic between those elements essentially sets the putting performance factor for the sport.

I don't understand how this is true. Putting at elevated
baskets is harder is it not? Having to putt with a funky
stance is harder isn't it? Even when your shot to basket
is clear but you are shooting a gap between trees, doesn't
that take extra mental focus/skill to execute? And of
course baskets on hills are mentally harder because of the
risk of not making it (despite basket being same size).

[duckychucky]

Ok what you added in your edit explains what you mean
better but bottom line is tricky greens make putting harder
and solves many problems discussed in this thread despite
the basket/disc size ratio.

[Cgkdisc]

They are more interesting and slightly tougher but not enough to significantly move the needle enough on the putting factor. On average, we're looking for 0.6 per hole increase to approach the more balanced factor in BG should we wish to get there. Just speculating but baskets in especially tricky locations might be 0.1-0.2 tougher on average than what a scratch player might shoot from any given location on level ground. So it might be a slight improvement but would likely be annoying doing that on more than a half dozen holes don't you think?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pwingles

Where do you get this idea that the amount of sucking one can do in ball golf is limitless but its limited in DG?

You didn't quote me, but when was the last time you saw someone attempt to throw a disc forward and fail completely to move the disc in any direction five or six times in a row?

Happens all the time with beginning golfers. Whiff. Whiff. Chunk. Whiff... Chunk. Whiff.

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Doesn't work to change the putting factor which is primarily based on the ratio of the height and width of the target zone versus the size/diameter of the disc. Stopping power of the receptacle matters in DG as already noted to stop cut thrus unlike goals where passing thru a ripped net still counts after crossing the line. As long as there's a clear flight path to the basket, even if it's elevated or the player has to straddle or play from their knee, that dynamic between those elements essentially sets the putting performance factor for the sport.

Perhaps one of the reasons putting is easier in disc golf than golf is capture speed. In golf if you hit a putt faster than a speed of about six feet by the hole (on a flat green at stimp 8), you have no chance of holing it.

In disc golf unless you can stand there and deliver a full-speed driver throw with your putter and you can still make the putt.

Perhaps the size of the basket is fine, but if you want to reward putting more, "touch" should be rewarded more.

(It's not a perfect analogy because golf requires you to remove the flagstick when you're putting from on the green and disc golf couldn't quite work like that. Still, I think it's a possible solution IF you want to make putting more difficult by modifying the basket. I still favor modifying the green.)

[New013]

i don't think making players use something condor like as a putter will make putting that much harder. the pros will practice it, get it down and probably go right back to putting at the same level. i could see it adding strokes in that the larger discs will glide out more on misses and make comeback putts longer and see some added strokes there.