#701  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:49 AM
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New013 New013 is offline
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yea you're obviously not really thinking about what you're saying. just because you make a hole longer doesn't necessarily mean it will be harder or create more scoring separation.

if a short par 3 hole at a certain distance is birdieable then some will 2 it, some will 3 it, and small bit will 4 it.

if you back that hole up so it's extremely hard to birdie but not far enough to make more people 4 it then very few will 2 it, most will 3 it and a small bit will 4 it.

no scoring separation created, you actually just lessened the separation by making it longer. similarly some holes that are huge hyzer/anhyzers but very short are tough because you're making a huge turn on a big angle in a short distance. if you back the pad up then making the turn becomes easier to accomplish, so again adding length didn't make the hole harder and you probably lowered the scoring separation.
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  #702  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:42 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Originally Posted by New013 View Post
yea you're obviously not really thinking about what you're saying. just because you make a hole longer doesn't necessarily mean it will be harder or create more scoring separation.

if a short par 3 hole at a certain distance is birdieable then some will 2 it, some will 3 it, and small bit will 4 it.

if you back that hole up so it's extremely hard to birdie but not far enough to make more people 4 it then very few will 2 it, most will 3 it and a small bit will 4 it.

no scoring separation created, you actually just lessened the separation by making it longer. similarly some holes that are huge hyzer/anhyzers but very short are tough because you're making a huge turn on a big angle in a short distance. if you back the pad up then making the turn becomes easier to accomplish, so again adding length didn't make the hole harder and you probably lowered the scoring separation.
You create an extremely dubious scenario, where the increased difficulty will not translate to the 4 scores. There must be players just barely making a 3 on the short that would move to 4 on the long.

A hole does not a course make. And peoples skill levels provide for different levels of variation in score.

Take 18 of those holes and the guy who can still deuce it every single time will separate from from the guy who can only deuce it 16 times. Where both might be able to deuce it every time on the short version.

And on the long version the worst player might not be able to get a 3 at all, where he might be able to sneak a few in on the short.
The winning score will stay the same, but the average score and the worst score will go up. And you have increased separation.

But is it possible that a particular hole would behave somewhat like you say? Sure. There will be excemptions as you point out.
And as I pointed out: "This, of course, will not particularly prevalent on wide open holes." (I missed a "be" there I see)

But in general, I will maintain that length will provide scoring separation. All other things being equal.
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  #703  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:08 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Stumbled on this 7 year old thread on the PDGA forums :
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=20238
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  #704  
Old 01-10-2013, 09:00 AM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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Are we going to make all holes 700+ feet? Even those holes can be reached in 2 by a good portion of decent players. There's not enough land to build some courses as it is. And stretching out a higher percentage of a course's holes to monster lengths would lengthen time of play to unreasonable levels.
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  #705  
Old 01-10-2013, 09:11 AM
bluTDI09 bluTDI09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombmk View Post
Stumbled on this 7 year old thread on the PDGA forums :
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=20238
That was an interesting read. It just goes to show that the same viewpoints existed then as exist now. And the game still suffers from the same shortcomings, but even more so.
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  #706  
Old 01-10-2013, 09:41 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Originally Posted by BigSky View Post
Are we going to make all holes 700+ feet? Even those holes can be reached in 2 by a good portion of decent players. There's not enough land to build some courses as it is. And stretching out a higher percentage of a course's holes to monster lengths would lengthen time of play to unreasonable levels.
I would never advocate that. Score separation can be accomplished by obstacles as well. Length is only one side of the equation, but one that for top level courses need to increase as well.

And yes, time of play would increase. It would be hard to keep the score average the same while increasing score separation and leaving room for a pros potential to shave off strokes.
It would also expand another factor that is perhaps less prevalent today; Fatigue. Mental and physical. (I don't feel qualified to evaluate the current effect of that on the pro level. )
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  #707  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:06 AM
dorseymatt dorseymatt is offline
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Here's a somewhat wacky idea:

How about eliminating drop-in putts? There's virtually no equivalent in ball golf, as even two-foot putts in that sport can be difficult. Make a circle around every basket that will denote the shortest possible distance for a putt (say, 20 feet).

Casual rounds, you could eyeball it and place a disc that lands inside that circle on the part of the circle closest to the disc (or walk it off to 20 feet if there is no visible circle). For tourneys, paint 'spokes' from the basket to the circle.
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  #708  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:11 AM
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spikodelhyzer spikodelhyzer is offline
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that's dumb.

Very dumb.

There are tap in putts in ball golf.
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  #709  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:19 AM
justinw justinw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
Here's a somewhat wacky idea:

How about eliminating drop-in putts? There's virtually no equivalent in ball golf, as even two-foot putts in that sport can be difficult. Make a circle around every basket that will denote the shortest possible distance for a putt (say, 20 feet).

Casual rounds, you could eyeball it and place a disc that lands inside that circle on the part of the circle closest to the disc (or walk it off to 20 feet if there is no visible circle). For tourneys, paint 'spokes' from the basket to the circle.
There was talk some time ago about making some type of circle around the basket like this which would be the closest allowed putt. Basically if you land inside this circle (say 10ft) you have to move back to the circle and putt out from there. The idea was that it forced every player to actually make a "throw" to hole out.

It seems gimmicky and I can't say I'm in favor, but it's an idea that's been tossed around before.
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  #710  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:20 AM
bombmk bombmk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
Here's a somewhat wacky idea:

How about eliminating drop-in putts? There's virtually no equivalent in ball golf, as even two-foot putts in that sport can be difficult. Make a circle around every basket that will denote the shortest possible distance for a putt (say, 20 feet).

Casual rounds, you could eyeball it and place a disc that lands inside that circle on the part of the circle closest to the disc (or walk it off to 20 feet if there is no visible circle). For tourneys, paint 'spokes' from the basket to the circle.
So you would be punished for parking you disc next to the pin?
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